U.S. Brings Back the .45

[MCgunner]

Even Evan himself will tell you not to take his OSS numbers literally for prediction. A 32 acp lacks the momentium and ability to penetrate and break bones like the 45 acp ball. They do have a simular wound profile for the first few inches then the 32 stops rather shallow where the 45 ball continues on. Pistols should still be carried by the troops. Their not front line weapons but they beat your bayonet when you run out of ammo or your rifle is destroyed.
Pat

Yeah, that's why I wouldn't carry a .32 rather than .45, exactly. I know the "stopping power percentage" isn't literal, but it's useful for comparing one caliber to another in actually shooting results. It' also illustrates the fact that there is much more to terminal ballistics than simply bullet size. Also, if you look at the results, it coordinates more with energy and bullet type (surprise, surprise) than it does with bullet diameter. This is yet another indication that there is more to terminal ballistics than bullet size and why the big bullet zealots hate the results and try their best to discredit them.

All things equal, energy (.45 and 9mm about 350 foot lbs) and bullet type (round nose ball), you would expect the .45 ball to be better slightly than 9mm ball and, surprise, surprise, that's what turns out to be the case!

 

[MCgunner]

Go out to Gunsite Ranch and tell that to Jeff Cooper and Michael Boatman.
It may be true, but I'm sure they'll have something to say about it.\

I'm sure they would. I've read their BS along with Chuck Taylor's. They have an agenda. I'm just interested in the truth about effectiveness of calibers. That said, it doesn't effect my choice of guns all that much. Today, I'm going to the shop and I'll be pocket carrying my .380 ACP. I carry the largest effective caliber that I can conceal effectively for my daily situation. I have a .45 I never carry because I can carry a 9 and not print it and still have equal effectiveness. I don't carry my .357 4" IWB cause it weighs 34 ounces unloaded and prints under a T shirt. etc, etc, etc...

I'm not of the .45 or nothing persuasion and, face it, it'd be a dull world if all there was were .45 ACP. You wouldn't get to argue on internet sites about the subject. You'd not get to spout little clichés like ".45 will never shrink", etc, etc, etc. How much fun would THAT be????

 

[Jeff White]

trueblue1776 said;

I'll try to get you some proof, so y'all can dine on crow.

You'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting?

What branch of the service is allegedly getting these new Sigs in .40 S&W? Why hasn't Sig announced this obviously very significant sale? Why hasn't there been a request for bids for .40 S&W ammo released?

Jeff

 

[Kodiaz]

Simple explanation to that Jeff. Halliburton no bid.

 

[Old Dog]

Are we to assume you're just making a Dick Cheney joke there, Kodiaz? ... 'cause I'm sure you know Halliburton has nothing to do with procurement of small arms for the military.

trueblue1776 said;
Quote:
I'll try to get you some proof, so y'all can dine on crow.

He's still talkin' about the SIG 229 in .40 thing? Sheesh ...

 

[MNine]

I believe the US Coast Guard is gettting SIG P229s. However, are they Dept of Homeland Security or Dept of Transportation? They are not DoD so they would be outside that procurement system right?

 

[Marshall]

You have one Army and are fighting only one Army. Each Army can only have one firearm, a pistol, in only one caliber. The only 2 choices are .45 and .32, which are you choosing your Army?

I'll, take .45 thank you, I hope my opposition chooses .32.

 

[trueblue1776]

trueblue1776 said;


You'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting?

What branch of the service is allegedly getting these new Sigs in .40 S&W? Why hasn't Sig announced this obviously very significant sale? Why hasn't there been a request for bids for .40 S&W ammo released?

Jeff

Civilian sourced ammo (of all types, even HP ) for the next two years until gov't production begins.

 

[trueblue1776]

I believe the US Coast Guard is gettting SIG P229s. However, are they Dept of Homeland Security or Dept of Transportation? They are not DoD so they would be outside that procurement system right?

Yes and no. Th Coast Guard has many private purchase deals that the DOD branches can only dream of, however they are still in the same logistics command type structure as the Navy, it has just become slightly more privatized in the last four years.

Oh and we is DHS now.

 

[IndianaDean]

True. I'm not disagreeing either, I'm just saying those guys probably would.

I thought about the HK thing some more. HK themselves did not have anything to do with the terrorist getting released. And the USP 9mm I used to have was the best gun I've ever fired, and I was extremely accurate and fast with it.
So I think our forces would be very well served if they used HKs.

 

[Jeff White]

trueblue1776 said;

Civilian sourced ammo (of all types, even HP ) for the next two years until gov't production begins.

Then where are the invitations for the civilian manufacturers to bid on selling the govt. the ammo?

If we're talking Coast Guard we're not talking about the US military anyway. They were moved from Dept of Transportation to Department of Homeland Security after 9-11 and I think they are now buying stuff through DHS and DOJ, totally out of the military procurement channels.

Sorry trueblue, I know you Coasties have a wartime mission and deploy overseas, but I think the reorganization that put you in DHS took you away from DOD. So nothing adopted by the Coast Guard would be the same as being adopted by the military. We don't say that the pistols that DEA, ICE DOE etc. buy are adopted by the military.

Jeff

 

[tom barthel]

statistics

I'm a non violent person now. I hope and pray I'll never need to resort to deadly force. If I should be forced into that sort of situation, If I am armed and am not taken out with the first shot I'll probably win. I'm a long way from being an expert but, I'm confident and competant with most modern handguns. Single action, double action, and semi automatics. I also have considerable training with select fire weapons (mostly MP5 SDs), and shotguns.

A 12 ga. slug usually works. We used 4 ought buck. It all works. The real key to training for a gunfight is PRACTICE. It is a sad reality that many military and police personnel are uncomfortable with the .45. If I were deliberatly going into a combat situation, I would make whatever was available work. If I had a choice, it would be .45 only. Just think about this, a .22 in the head will take out your mark quicker than a .45 in the leg. I am confident in my abilities however, I can miss with anything.
Tom

 

[Rock_Steady]

All I can say is that if this makes the cost of my plinking rounds for .45 come down due to gov't surplus rounds, I will be more than happy to see it. $20 a box for wwb at Wally world 1-2x a month is getting a bit annoying. And I really don't see too much of an improvement loading my own.

 

[trueblue1776]

trueblue1776 said;


Then where are the invitations for the civilian manufacturers to bid on selling the govt. the ammo?

If we're talking Coast Guard we're not talking about the US military anyway. They were moved from Dept of Transportation to Department of Homeland Security after 9-11 and I think they are now buying stuff through DHS and DOJ, totally out of the military procurement channels.

Sorry trueblue, I know you Coasties have a wartime mission and deploy overseas, but I think the reorganization that put you in DHS took you away from DOD. So nothing adopted by the Coast Guard would be the same as being adopted by the military. We don't say that the pistols that DEA, ICE DOE etc. buy are adopted by the military.

Jeff

So far the other members of DHS are all civilian, and are treated as civilian police. The CG being part of DHS does not negate the obvious advantage of standardisation between military forces. I admit I have not heard of any other normal (as in not SF) DOD outfits going to the 229. But the 229 is a solid little gun, if it goes well for us...

Anyhow, the ammo is going to be privately sourced, i.e. wholesalers and the like. No big contracts as of now, it sounds like a "we'll try it all and find what works" kind of deal.

A tasty little tid bit about the CG's DAO 229: SAI's have noticed an across the board drop in qualifying accuracy, nearly 8%... that may be a bit scary.

 

[Jeff White]

trueblue1776,
I hope you guys don't live to regret the decision to break from DOD when aquiring things like small arms. .40 S&W ammunition will most likely be hard for the crew of a cutter or other craft deployed with US forces overseas to get resupplied.

No one in DOD is even thinking about anything in .40 S&W. If and it's a big if, there is a new pistol (and like I said in an ealier post, it will take years before one is selected and fielded) it will either be in .45 or 9mm.

One of the reasons 6.8 SPC is dead in SOCOM is because SOCOM didn't want the logisitcs headache of having ODAs and other units in far flung places in the world using ammunition that was unobtainable through conventional units.

Jeff

 

[trueblue1776]

trueblue1776,
.40 S&W ammunition will most likely be hard for the crew of a cutter or other craft deployed with US forces overseas to get resupplied.

Jeff

You may be suprised. One thing the CG does is carry ALOT of ammo. We've always had far more guns than gunners. If you saw.. it would give some gun guys romantic dreams.....

 

[Vitamin G]

I say go with 1911 style .45acp doublestacks























or 10mm...

 

[355sigfan]

I say go with 1911 style .45acp doublestacks



Double stack 1911's have a whole ration of reliability issues that would not be best to burden our military with. Thats why the FBI dropped them and with with the single stack springfield.
Pat



















or 10mm...

 

[Grunt]

I say go with 1911 style .45acp doublestacks [\QUOTE]

Ok, then YOU go out there on the range with a batch of new recruits or medical folks that have little to no experience with handguns. Watch the fun of loaded weapons with fingers on the trigger getting turned up range, at each other and even back at you behind the line and hope that they don't manage to pop a round off at the wrong place and time before you can get them to point the weapon down range!
The other day we had a girl in our cop class that said she didn't like shooting or even handling firearms. This is a person that for some reason got into this carrear field and is just now realizing that firearms play a part in the job??? Folks, these people are out there and they may be on the firing line right next to you. Not everybody in the military is into gun like we are and there is no way I would want to put a 1911 or Glock or anything similar in their hands! On the other hand, DA/SA trigger aren't the best thing for accuracy like a good SA trigger is either with most shooters throwing the first shot or having to slow down to rediclous speed in order to keep their shots in the bull. I think the best compromise would be a pre-cocked DAO trigger like the HK LEM or Sig DAK trigger. It's long enough so a new shooter is going to realize they are actually pulling the trigger before it goes boom yet light enough to not distrub their sight picture as much as a DA/SA trigger pull does.

 

[MCgunner]

You have one Army and are fighting only one Army. Each Army can only have one firearm, a pistol, in only one caliber. The only 2 choices are .45 and .32, which are you choosing your Army?

I'll, take .45 thank you, I hope my opposition chooses .32.

No small arms, no air cover, no artillery, no heavy armor? Forget it, I'm going AWOL! Facts are, in most militaries, a sidearm is just jewelry, a status symbol. That's why some militaries in the past have been armed with a .32, not for the enormous "stopping power" of the .32 ball cartridge. The US has always consider it a viable weapon for SOME situations, military police, airmen for defense if they go down (good luck), "tunnel rats" in Vietnam (give me a shotgun, too). Originally, the pistol was horse cavalry armorment ala civil war Colts.

However, going onto the modern battlefield with only a pistol is worse than suicide.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

However, going onto the modern battlefield with only a pistol is worse than suicide.

A good friend of mine did his tour in Iraq armed only with his M9. What's worse, that particular pistol absolutely refused to cycle properly. The round in the chamber would fire, but that was it.

Traipsing around a war zone, armed only with a single-shot 9mm ball pistol, is indeed suicidal. But that's what my friend had to do.

 

[kentucky_smith]

ahem

 

[trueblue1776]

ahem

Oh CZ, how hot you are, nice smooth solid steel...

But some times you have a grip like a 2X4 and I think we should break up....

 

[brickboy240]

I say the new Springfield Armory XD in 45ACP would make a dandy choice.

13 rounds and a grip that fits most hands. No safety or external levers...real simple. Easy to field strip and ultra reliable. Tough as a boot and proven. Not very expensive and that usually turns the govt. buyer's heads.

- Brickboy240

 

[Thain]

Can I muddy the water a bit more... what about .45 GAP?