U.S. Pastor Gets 3+ Years for 20rds in Russia

[lvcat2004]

I'm sure that his sentence could be reduced significantly, but this just illustrates a culture of arrogance in general American public. They go to Europe, Asia, or Africa and speak English as though they should be so accommodating, and disrespect THEIR culture in THERE country because, oh, we are AMERICANS. No wonder the rest of the world hates us. Of course not everyone is like that, but when I travel abroad, I see this A LOT, to a point where I get embarrassed.

This incident is one example of such arrogance, ignorance, and disrespect for foreign laws/culture, and I agree that ignorance is no excuse and he deserves some time behind bars, perhaps not 3 years...

 

[TexasRifleman]

P.S. I suspect that the judge though he was smuggling sniper rounds for the cechens. Hence the harsh sentence.

Probably has more to do with religion that guns.....

 

[shdwfx]

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse....He broke the law and should be punished according to the normal sentence for that offense.

Wrong.

In this case, it is a factor. He could have just been convicted of illegal possession instead of smuggling - a much lesser offense. Considering his ignorance and the minimal amount of contraband, no sane person would constitute his actions as smuggling. Smuggling implies knowingly violating the law.

Say someone slipped ammunition onto your carry-on without your knowledge and you were caught with it. That does not make you a smuggler - the planter is the smuggler. Convincing a court of your ignorance would be the key part of avoiding a conviction.

I agree with TexasRifleman on religion's role in this. It was only a few years back that Christianity was severely oppressed in Russia, and there are remnants of that still.

 

[Funderb]

So, we all know the annals of the russian system of law now?
I think we should try to not legislate from our armchairs and hope for the best.

 

[lvcat2004]

I disagree with baseless accusation that this had to do more with religion than guns, and such accusation is another arrogant disrespect for a foreign culture/law.

As you may know (or not), majority of Russians consider themselves Russian Orthodox, which last I checked, is Christianity. This accusation is in the same line as someone of color committing a crime, being sentenced and saying "I got unfair sentence because I'm xxxxx".

It is debatable whether his action should be considered "smuggling", which is defined as:

"the clandestine transportation of goods or persons past a point where prohibited, such as out of a building, into a prison, or across an international border, in violation of the law or other rules."

Isn't that what he did?? Whether the intent was to sell, or to give to a friend who just bought a rifle may not be so relevant. This is not in the same ballpark as some unknown person slipping a box of ammo in your suitcase without your knowledge. He had the INTENT to bring the box of ammo, and he did not declare it at the customs, which makes it clandestine.

Yes, I think 3 years is very harsh, but please stop making excuses for this person, especially by disrespecting the ruling as "oh it's because of religion". That's uncalled for.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Probably has more to do with religion that guns.....

I doubt it. I have to tell that although the man may have been a fine pastor, taking weapons or ammunition into another country is a major bonehead mistake - especially a country fighting a major insurgency.

I would fully expect that if I had done that in Yemen or Somalia, I would be lucky to have escaped with my life.

Weapons, ammunition - anything that is related munitions, or even looks military, I'd ask about it in advance.

Even aside from weapons and ammunition, think about the stuff you're taking - ask yourself how it's likely to be used in the country you are visiting. For example, there was a semi-famous story when I was in Yemen of someone attached to the embassy that took scuba gear. Who uses scuba gear in the Middle East? Not a big hobby. Luckily, the man was attached to the embassy, and diplomatic immunity protected him.

Let's hope and pray that the pastor gets a reduced sentence after the initial sentence. That may be difficult - 3 years for weapons smuggling already sounds pretty light. It would be hard to imagine the court giving a sentence much lighter than a Russian would get for a similar crime.

I no reason to doubt his story, but you can imagine the attitude of the US court if someone was caught bringing illegal weapons into this country, and he said, "I didn't know - I thought the laws were the same as back home."

I loved the time I spent abroad. Let me amend that and say Mogadihsu was pretty rough, but I learned a lot. Yemen was fun. But you gotta think!

Mike

 

[Markbo]

Wrong.

In this case, it is a factor. He could have just been convicted of illegal possession instead of smuggling - a much lesser offense. Considering his ignorance and the minimal amount of contraband, no sane person would constitute his actions as smuggling. Smuggling implies knowingly violating the law.

Say someone slipped ammunition onto your carry-on without your knowledge and you were caught with it. That does not make you a smuggler - the planter is the smuggler. Convincing a court of your ignorance would be the key part of avoiding a conviction.

I agree with TexasRifleman on religion's role in this. It was only a few years back that Christianity was severely oppressed in Russia, and there are remnants of that still.

Seriously? Is all that supposed to be sarcastic? You think that Americans have the right to travel anywhere in the world and just claim ignorance and get off scott free? Is that a for real opinion??

"Honest Judge Ruskovich.... I didn't know all those condoms full of narcotics were in my colon!!" How naive... if someone slips something into your luggage (like there is big profit in one box of ammo), then you DO bear responsibility. You MUST take responsibility for your own bags when you travel.

What if it were a bomb?? "Well heck ,Lord of the High Court of St. James... I didn't know I had a bomb in there!!" Would it be answered by "Well by all means good citizen of America, thou art free to go!"? I don't think so.

How about put the shoe on the other foot?: "Honest meester juche... I don't know exposeeves in my shoos are bad een America". Well then, let's just cut old Achmed loose!

I doubt any person that has responded to this thread has ever been to Russia or even knows any Russians, so the accusations of religious persecution do not ring true or accurate. The PEOPLE of Russia always were and continue to be God fearing. It was the STATE that held down those freedoms and they are no longer in power. FWIW I have met 100's if not 1,000's of Russians. I have found them to be the most 'American like' of nearly any nationality in the world except Canadians.

Neither does a single person here know one wordski about smuggling laws in Russia. How can any of you speak with such authoriti (Vague Cartman reference)? It sounds as if just by reading this thread any Judge would be wowed by our collective ignorance.

And to those that think the moral is 'Don't travel outside the U.S.' I can only say....

Uhhhhhhh.........WHAT?

That is the lesson you get out of all this? God forbid it be anything simple like "Know the laws & customs of the country you are going to". This is not hard. This is not new. Men have been traveling to each other's countries for 1,000's of years. If you are not looking for a fight, then you know your hosts laws and customs. You are a visitor.

I don't agree with three years in prison for a relatively minor incident, but any adult American that does not realize that taking loaded ammunition anywhere he chooses without checking the law is unbelievably ignorant.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Say someone slipped ammunition onto your carry-on without your knowledge and you were caught with it. That does not make you a smuggler - the planter is the smuggler.

Do you know something specific about Russian law?

In general, I would expect that someone sticking something in your suitcase would be a very different circumstance. You did not intend to take any actions that violated the law.

In the pastor's case he fully intended to take the actions that violated the law - there is no question that he put the ammo in the suitcase and brought it into the country without declaring it.

I think that even in the US, "ignorance of the law is no defense", but ignorance of the facts is.

I would also be very surprised if there were not specific warning signs about weapons and ammunition at the airport in English, German, French and Russian at that airport as you entered the country.

There are Americans who think they are sacrosanct or something - I have no idea about the pastor. I have met people who have thought that being American somehow made them above the local law, or the embassy could get them out of any jam. The rest of the world doesn't really think we're better than they are, no matter what we think!

The "religion" is total BS, in my opinion. If he had been a Moslem, I might believe that. I think there are significant areas of anti-semitism in Russia, so maybe a Jew would have gotten a stiffer sentence. but Russia is very much Russian Orthodox again - unless someone had strong evidence, I don't buy that being a Christian made any difference at all.

Mike

 

[glocker82]

Everything I need is right here in the US. Beaches, Mountains, Beer, Women, Guns. Sometimes you just gotta be content with where you're at!

 

[Bendutro]

Is he being incarcerated there? Why can't he call on the US consulate? Extradition? There are diplomatic options that could be used. Unless this is a company front like the bad old days of the cold war, a pastor should be small potatoes on the international scene.

 

[shdwfx]

Funderb:

So, we all know the annals of the russian system of law now?

No. The distinction of smuggling vs. illegal possession was pointed out by a lawyer from the article.

lvcat2004:

[Americans] go to Europe, Asia, or Africa and speak English as though they should be so accommodating

When I travel abroad, I speak English because they speak my language much better than I speak theirs. English is a near-universal language in most industrialized nations. That's not arrogant, just recognizing my limitations - my high school Latin is unlikely to help.

I disagree with baseless accusation that this had to do more with religion than guns, and such accusation is another arrogant disrespect for a foreign culture/law.

What exactly about that is disrespectful? You agree the sentence is harsh, and TexasRifleman's comment was mere speculation as to why.

As you may know (or not), majority of Russians consider themselves Russian Orthodox

As you may know (or not), a majority of Russians consider themselves secular (don't believe me? see CIA fact book).

which last I checked, is Christianity.

By who's definition? Yours? The largest denomination, Roman Catholic Church, disagrees as would many Protestant denominations. (disclaimer: I am neither Catholic nor Orthodox, just aware of church history).

Also, the USSR bitterly persecuted any religion not called Orthodox. As you may know (or not) this didn't die overnight with the fall of communism. In light of that, TexasRifleman's comment is valid speculation.

He had the INTENT to bring the box of ammo, and he did not declare it at the customs, which makes it clandestine.

By that definition clandestine, he smuggled his tighty-whities into Russia too. Strange definition that. He didn't know he was supposed to declare the ammo.

...especially by disrespecting the ruling as "oh it's because of religion". That's uncalled for.

Well, that's your opinion.

 

[shdwfx]

Seriously? Is all that supposed to be sarcastic? You think that Americans have the right to travel anywhere in the world and just claim ignorance and get off scott free? Is that a for real opinion??

Did I say that?

 

[Kentak]

Moral of the story: Know the laws of the states and countries you intend to visit.

K

 

[lvcat2004]

Russian Public Opinion Research Center states that 63% of Russians consider themselves Russian Orthodox...oh wait, you don't respect any foreign organization....stick with your CIA info, and by the way, it doesn't hurt to learn a foreign language....your lack of language ability doesn't make for a good excuse or an example.

If you want to claim that Russian Orthodox church is not part of Christianity, then so be it.

If you are comparing tighty whities to ammunitions, then your immaturiy halts any further conversations with you. Adios.

 

[shdwfx]

delete

 

[Rachen]

They seem to crack down hard on those who just have some rifle ammo, but they just gave the "Chessboard Serial Killer" a mere 20 or something years in prison, FOR OVER 40 MURDERS!

Why, maybe the Chessboard Killer didn't use a gun at all for his killings??

I don't understand how liberals think.

 

[Markbo]

Did I say that?

Obviously I paraphrased. What you did state is that ignorance of the law IS a factor and go on to say what no sane person would do, thereby intimating the guy got railroaded and that apparently all of Russia - or at least it's complete judicial system - are insane.

Then you go on to explain if you were a 'victim' of a real smuggler by carrying goods YOU didn't put in your bags, you have some sort of defense.

So... got all the semantics out of the way... in light of my previous quote and response:

are

you

serious?

 

[shdwfx]

@Markbo

Yes, I'm serious. I seriously disagree with your mischaracterization of my statements.

Nobody is saying his ignorance qualifies him for a pardon. My argument (as was his lawyer's - IANARL nor do I play one - read the article) is that a less-severe conviction for "illegal possession" - not smuggling - was appropriate given the circumstances.

How does my "no sane person" remark constitute a sweeping judgement call on the entire Russian court system? Do you suppose I should endorse the 3 years for 20 rounds ruling? Do you think that's sane?

I'm having a hard time following all those illogical leaps. If I had really said what you said I said I'd say I disagree too.

 

[shdwfx]

Rachen:

Russia is very corrupt nowadays.

*sarcasm*
That won't do. You are displaying typical American arogance.
That statement indicates a deplorable lack of appreciation for other cultures, not to mention an insufficient amount of contempt for ours.
*/sarcasm*

 

[ArmedBear]

Moral of the story: Know the laws of the states and countries you intend to visit.

I'd add: ESPECIALLY if you're going on a hunting trip.

Maybe my proximity to Mexico makes me more aware of this stuff, since I know people who hunt in Mexico and I'm contemplating doing it myself. But man, if in doubt, assume that it is illegal to bring any firearms, ammo, or anything related to them into a foreign country. Work from there, and find out what you need to.

While people do go to Mexico and hunt, they need to have permits and pay some often-ridiculous fees to bring a firearm. There are limits to how much ammo you can bring. And if you do NOT get all the right paperwork and approvals, and pay all the right fees, you can be charged with a crime for having one empty rimfire case in your car. I almost ALWAYS have an empty .22 case or two on the floor of my Jeep somewhere; that's one reason I'm reluctant to drive down there.

 

[mr.trooper]

Sounds like the judge has an agenda, and wanted to make a spectacle of him.

Yes it was technically illegal, but for such a small thing done in ignorance, jail time is incredibly severe. You would think they would just confiscate the ammo and perhaps make him pay a fine. 3 years in a Russian prison is a draconian punishment far in excess of what he has committed.

 

[Rachen]

That won't do. You are displaying typical American arogance.
That statement indicates a deplorable lack of appreciation for other cultures, not to mention an insufficient amount of contempt for ours.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go that far. I just wanted to criticize their easy treatment against the Chessboard Serial Killer. I deleted that offensive comment.

 

[ArmedBear]

Sounds like the judge has an agenda, and wanted to make a spectacle of him.

Now who'd ever think THAT would happen? Good thing that never happens here.

 

[Markbo]

Thank you shdwfx

 

[Geno]

Where's preacherman?!