Uberti vs. Colt Sig Series

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Coyote3855

Coyote3855

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Bit of a rant and brief review. I recently acquired a Colt Signature Series 1849 Pocket Model and a Uberti Pocket Model of Navy Caliber. The Colt came from Gun Broker and the Uberti from Midway. I've wanted a 1849 for a long time, debated Uberti vs. Colt. Decided to spend double the money for a Colt. Yes, I am aware of the debate as to whether or not it's a "real" Colt. I don't care.

The Colt came apparently new in the box with all the paperwork. The seller had carefully avoided pictures of several places where the silver plating was peeling (trigger guard both sides) or spotted (rear grip frame).

The fit and finish of the Uberti is superior to the Colt. Every juncture of metal to metal and metal to wood is smooth. The brass is not highly polished in places, especially top of the inside of the trigger guard. The Colt has several areas where the fit is not as good, or perhaps the silver plating is bubbling at the juncture of trigger guard and frame. Fit of grips to grip frame is not as perfect as the Uberti. Perhaps the wood shrank over time. The muzzle end of the Cold barrel was unfinished in the white, not blued. The color case is somewhat more vivid on the Colt.

None of the cosmetics will affect shooting of course, but I'm disappointed in the quality of the Colt. I believe I would have been happier with the much cheaper Uberti version. End rant.
 
There are knowledgeable folks who believe the modern Uberti guns are better than the 2nd and 3rd generation Colt blackpowder guns. Kirst & Strite quoted me for converting an 1860 to a Richards Type I and Jay said t hat not only are the Uberti guns better and require less work but that they recolor the frames anyway. These days, even the case colors are not really a reason to choose Colt over Uberti. Of course, those that value the Colt name over everything else won't care about all that.....or this.

IMG_9268b.jpg
 
Good morning!
I have one of the 3rd Series 'Signature' Colt Whitneyville Dragoons. It is a beautiful revolver (even with the silver plating issue that is mentioned by the OP ) with no issues as to fit of metal or wood. Box with all of the paperwork and a letter purportedly from Colt as to it's authenticity came with it. I wanted at least one Colt in my small Black Powder Revolver collection and for the price will be very happy in the future to purchase a new Uberti or Pietta as those guns shine in every standard that makes a fine revolver. ( Had to with the Starr and LeMat ;o)
regards all!

D.JPG
 
Coyote3855

Sorry to hear about the shortcomings you've experienced with your new to you Colt 1849 Pocket Model. My Signature Series Colt Model 1860 is still in the same perfect condition as when I got it over 20 years ago. A beautifully made revolver with outstanding metal to metal and wood to metal fit and finish.

xbjGj5k.jpg
 
AlexanderA

I believe some parts were made in Italy for the 3rd Generation Signature Series but that the guns were fully assembled and finished (including the bluing, plating, and color case hardening), here in the United States. These guns were made under an exclusive licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by the Colt Black Powder Arms Company; pretty much by the same people that built the 2nd Generation Colts. It should also be noted that there are no other manufacturers markings or foreign proof marks anywhere on these guns and that both the 2nd and 3rd Generation guns are considered to be authentic Colt black powder revolvers.
 
I've heard that the silver plating on Sig Series was coated with something to protect the silver. The coating tends to flake off and then the silver gets tarnished, creating a mottled appearance. Supposedly the coating can be removed and the silver will be fine once it's polished.
 
Colt didnt really MAKE second and third series guns. They where made by Uberti and ASM and "finished" at Colt factories..

Thats why some ASMs still have the Colt address on them.

The long story short is that it was basically a test run for Colt.. People where getting "into" the BP thing so they figured "lets see" but they no longer had the tooling themselves and wernt going to belly that kinda dough for a "maybe".

Bottom line? Uberti and ASM did such crappy work that Colt ended up doing MORE work (you know, things like fitting short arbors from Uberti and such) at their own factories and finally tossed their hands up and said "To hell with THIS.. we JUST aint doing it".

The sad part about this is that Uberti COULD have manned up and fixed THEIR problems and they would have made themselves AND Colt one HELL of a lot of dough but didnt and STILL havent... ASM? Because of all this, they basically got STUCK with an entire wearhouse full of barrels with COLTS name and address on them. ASM had pretty much sunk every dime THEY had INTO making those parts for Colt, who then said "no thanks"... So, they just slapped those barrels on theyre OWN guns (which never HAD short arbors and wernt the REASON Colt discontinued the lines BTW) and that lasted a very SHORT time, until Colt actually SUED them for selling guns with the address (That Colt had actually ASKED them to make and then refused to pay for!)... Long story short, THAT is why you dont see current ASMs...

ASM got royally screwed on that whole deal... If Uberti had actually bothered to fix the arbor for Colt, we would STILL see current production black powder Colts and ASMs.

The problem that caused all this remains unfixed to this day.
 
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As much as I like ASM and HATE Uberti, in all fairness I bet most of your flaking is on the barrel aint it? THAT was actually ASMs crap... Their nickel plating was ALWAYS weak... And like Uberti that never bothered to "step up their game" for the mighty Colt contract, ASM seems to have never done any better with their plating..

Of course plating is a damn sight less important then a short arbor... But still, youd THINK they would have at least tried..
 
Haven't seen a 2nd gen Colt or an ASM (or any other maker of O.T.s for that matter) that didn't have a short arbor. The original open top revolvers from Colt and the latest from Pietta are the only offerings I'm aware of that don't have short arbors.
Uberti (primarily) supplied Colt with parts in the white, Colt assembled, fitted and finished them. Like them or not, Uberti has more correct lines and model size than the other manufacturers at that time. The sad part is, 2nd and Sig.series Colts as well as all the replica manufacturers at that time have crappy 70's parts that look like they were cut out with a hatchet!! Fast forward to today, Uberti has, by far, the best action parts ever put in an open top while Pietta isn't a whole lot better than the 70's (but they are better!).
Overall, you get what you pay for. Uberti's get time spent with attention to the arbor problem while Pietta's actions need a LOT of attention!

As a rule, the older the revolver (from the late 90's and back) the harder it is to work on. Tollerances are all over the place, materials can be crap, brittle parts and ASM is probably the worst as far as the "swings" from good to bad go. Many Smith's and shops won't touch them any more. Most will only work on new examples. I can totally understand and have thought in that direction myself . . .

Mike
 
Coyote3855 said:
Bit of a rant and brief review. I recently acquired a Colt Signature Series 1849 Pocket Model and a Uberti Pocket Model of Navy Caliber. The Colt came from Gun Broker and the Uberti from Midway. I've wanted a 1849 for a long time, debated Uberti vs. Colt. Decided to spend double the money for a Colt. Yes, I am aware of the debate as to whether or not it's a "real" Colt. I don't care.
Click to expand...

I called Colt Blackpowder at the time. They were getting the parts from Uberti and doing enough content work to call the revolvers American Made. I highly suspect that the real value added work was done in Italy. That is the machining, reaming, boring of the cylinders, the rifling of the barrels, etc. Polishing and the case colors takes a lot of time and labor, and I am certain that was done in the US, and that is probably how they were able to put enough labor content into the guns to call them American made. So, parts actually made in Italy, shipped here, polished, fitted, and sold as American made.
 
Jesus, is every thread from now on going to feature Stormson's irrational rants about short arbors?????????

Here's the real story without the drama:

https://www.coltforum.com/forums/co...lack-powder-guns-considered-real-colts-2.html

In short, raw castings and components were procured from Italy and completely fitted and finished by Colt for the 2nd generation. By contractor for the 3rd. That's why the 3rd's don't letter. If we're going to whine and complain about short arbors, let's bellyache about the quality of the SAA at the time too.
 
Stormson said:
As much as I like ASM and HATE Uberti, in all fairness I bet most of your flaking is on the barrel aint it? THAT was actually ASMs crap... Their nickel plating was ALWAYS weak... And like Uberti that never bothered to "step up their game" for the mighty Colt contract, ASM seems to have never done any better with their plating..

Of course plating is a damn sight less important then a short arbor... But still, youd THINK they would have at least tried..
Click to expand...
The plating would've been done by Colt. I would opine that plating was a hell of a lot more important than the arbor issue. Even if you determine the arbor to be an issue, it's an easier fix than replating and doesn't affect originality.


Stormson said:
As much as I HATE Uberti...
Click to expand...
And now we finally get to the crux of the issue.


Stormson said:
Long story short, THAT is why you dont see current ASMs...
Click to expand...
You don't see current ASM's because their quality sucked.


Stormson said:
If Uberti had actually bothered to fix the arbor for Colt, we would STILL see current production black powder Colts and ASMs.
Click to expand...
Disagree. Most of these guns remain unfired. This arbor issue is largely imaginary.

Colt is barely producing SAA's, which have a MUCH larger market than percussion guns. Not many are going to want to fork over $1000 for a new Colt percussion gun.
 
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I am sick of seeing this crap in every other thread.
Come on guys, quit poking each other with a stick and throwing rocks at each other. ( or poo as the case may be).
This is a good thread.
CraigC, you obviously know a lot about Uberti and that's why I read over this thread. I'm wanting to learn all I can about BP revolvers, not just a couple of brands.
Let's get back to why we are here.
 
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Since nobody mentioned it yet, the muzzle not crowned and not blued is actually a historically correct feature of the original Colt percussion revolvers. All of the standard version Colt 2nd Gen and I believe Sig Series as well, have this feature.
 
maint1517 said:
I am sick of seeing this crap in every other thread.
Come on guys, quit poking each other with a stick and throwing rocks at each other. ( or poo as the case may be).
This is a good thread.
CraigC, you obviously know a lot about Uberti and that's why I read over this thread. I'm wanting to learn all I can about BP revolvers, not just a couple of brands.
Let's get back to why we are here.
Click to expand...
Gotta agree with Maint on this, also I'm inclined to pay attention to what Goon says about the arbor issue, that is a problem I have seen with my Walker and another fellow's as well. His beat itself into junk in a very short time. Mine started stretching the wedge area before I caught it. Accuracy had also gone down hill. So it's not being anal retentive it is a legitimate problem. Goon has made a business out of fixing these things so there is something to it.
 
Thanks Jackrabbit! Didn't mean to get any boxers in a bunch here which is why I don't post much anymore (not to mention being busy!). I chime in when a pretty direct question is asked but this time I fell for the short arbor content in a discussion about 2nd gen Colts. I just wanted to point out that pretty much ALL open top revolver copies have a short arbor including bonafide Colts!

It is a big deal as far the integrity of the OT overall. Some (because of tolerances) may withstand the ill fit more than others and also depending on the load used. Ultimately though, it will trash itself and be destined to hang on a wall . . . if that!! If you're going to compare an open top (of any make) to any other S.A., new or old, it isn't fair unless the O.T. is an accurate copy of the original. My own Dragoons still maintain a barrel/cylinder clearance of .0015" with a steady diet of 950fps 250 gr. lead.
The originals didn't have a short arbor and that little item is paramount to the open top design. It defines the layout and the tollerance factor of two assemblies and how they will react to each other as a whole. It's rather amazing that something that seems so insignificant could actually be so important but it is. You could equate its importance to that of the keystone in an arch. The keystone locks the arch and keeps it structurally sound. Removed, the arch falls to pieces!! I know this is off point and don't mean to highjack the thread so I'll stop here. Just suffice it to say that it's not necessarily an anal thing as much as it is a true structural thing even though I reckon anyone could be "anal" about any particular thing! Heck, I want them ALL to be the most excellent and true copy of what it is they represent!!

Mike
 
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45 Dragoon said:
Thanks Jackrabbit! Didn't mean to get any boxers in a bunch here which is why I don't post much anymore (not to mention being busy!). I chime in when a pretty direct question is asked but this time I fell for the short arbor content in a discussion about 2nd gen Colts. I just wanted to point out that pretty much ALL open top revolver copies have a short arbor including bonafide Colts!

It is a big deal as far the integrity of the OT overall. Some (because of tolerances) may withstand the ill fit more than others and also depending on the load used. Ultimately though, it will trash itself and be destined to hang on a wall . . . if that!! If you're going to compare an open top (of any make) to any other S.A., new or old, it isn't fair unless the O.T. is an accurate copy of the original. My own Dragoons still maintain a barrel/cylinder clearance of .0015" with a steady diet of 950fps 250 gr. lead.
The originals didn't have a short arbor and that little item is paramount to the open top design. It defines the layout and the tollerance factor of two assemblies and how they will react to each other as a whole. It's rather amazing that something that seems so insignificant could actually be so important but it is. You could equate its importance to that of the keystone in an arch. The keystone locks the arch and keeps it structurally sound. Removed, the arch falls to pieces!! I know this is off point and don't mean to highjack the thread so I'll stop here. Just suffice it to say that it's not necessarily an anal thing as much as it is a true structural thing even though I reckon anyone could be "anal" about any particular thing! Heck, I want them ALL to be the most excellent and true copy of what it is they represent!!

Mike
Click to expand...

Not ALL Mike.. As you have said many times.. and I TRIED to point out in this thread... PIETTA got off their asses and fixed this issue YEARS ago.. Why the "almighty gods" of black powder seem incapable of doing the same is beyond me. Other then fact they KNOW they can keep selling broken firearms that NEED your fixing right out of the box, and STILL have a thousand shills singing their praises.

Jesus man.. You know better then ANYBODY. Youve built an entire business largely based on fixing what SHOULD have been fixed at the factory.. No.. thats not right. On what should NEVER have been a PROBLEM to begin with.

Regardless of what anyone says though, They will NEVER sell me a Colt that is defective right out of the box. No more then I would buy a brand new Chevy with busted breaks.

There ARE guns, like Dragoons, that if I just HAD to have a new one I wouldnt have any choice of course... And in fact there ARE a few guns they make I WOULD like to have and arnt made by anyone else any longer.

But Im not EVER going to be suckered into buying a product that I KNOW is already broken. EVER. I really dont get how people think that makes me "wrong" somehow... Thats ok, I STILL havent bought broken things and bragged about it.. Less of em I buy, the more that leaves for them.. and until Uberti thinks enough of their customers to FIX the problem.. like Pietta did YEARS ago... Well, they are WELCOME to em.
 
Stormson, . . . . you know they'll cost even more!

Not to mention, it's a cheap, easy fix. My business is really about tuning (the Hook is, I fix the arbor free if they get the gun tuned!! Shhhhhhhhh !!!!!!)

If you'll look at my first post ^^ you'll notice I say -the originals and the later Pietta's- dont have the problem. Which is why I said "pretty much ALL . . ." the second time (so not to be redundant).

And since it's an easy fix, the Uberti can be made an excellent shooter. I brag about my Dragoons often. Whether tuned or not, the arbor fit is the key for an accurate shooter and is the only way you can have the same revolver each time it is re-assembled. This also goes for 2nd gens, Sig series as well as all open top copies from whatever make.

At the end of the day, Sig series, 2nd gens and Uberti's are all related which, fortunately, means parts are available. Uberti's today are better than ever and as I also said above, the action parts are the best ever installed in an open top made by anybody!! With roughly 30 yrs worth of refinement, it's no wonder that the quality of the product is so much better than what was offered in the 70's/80's as high end!! That's a good thing.

Mike
 
Eh... Damn. Youre right Mike, hadnt thought about the fact they would just end up charging more. The "lowly" Pietta was able to fix the issue without charging more, but yup.. Uberti would.

Youre also right about having mentioned Pietta, sorry. AND I was thinking I was on the "other" thread to boot LoL.

But yeah, I guess at the end of the day jackrabbit could be right... Its IS sort of like FORD CHEVY in a way. But it still just irks the hell outa me that they think so little of their customers as to not just FIX the issue.. er.. without charging extra LoL
 
Once again it comes down to production, why stop an assembly line that's making money for you to change something that you don't know is a problem? That's really what it comes down to, ignorance of the original design plus not wanting to change what the CNC machinery programming is doing. It takes time and that's something the management does not feel necessary to spend to correct it.
 
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