UK Gun Laws....OUCH!!!!

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It's up to the applicant to make out his case, not for the police to make out a case against him.

What good is owning a gun if you cannot use it to defend yourself with?

Because it's for sport. Not for killing people. You even talk to them about the possibility of using your gun for defence here and you will loose your licence, permanently, and the courts will consistantly back this approach.
 
"The Brits have it bad, but in Canada the Liberals have proposed a handgun ban."


Yeah they had proposed a handgun Ban. That is probably one of the reasons they were turfed out of office. Banning guns goes over well in Toronto but the Liberals "shot themselves in the foot" with the Western Provinces and the rural votes. One of the election platforms of the Conservative government which is now in power is to dismantle the gun registry which had become a hugely expensive beaurocratic mess and considering half the people defied the law and refused to register their guns it was pretty much useless even in the eyes of the law enforcement community.
 
BUT CAN YOU DEFEND YOURSELF!!!!!

Sheesh, isn't anybody going to address the issue about self defense. ENOUGH WITH THE GUNS ALREADY!!!! If the only thing you can do with them is take them out, fondle them, and shoot some paper THEN IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU CAN OWN GUNS OR NOT!!! :banghead:


I'm simply not going to let this matter drop until somebody addresses it! :)
 
@ Fosbery

Thanks for your good info, I am learning a lot from you. I have two questions:

1) What is the difference between a Section 1 and Section 2 shotgun? Is it Semi-auto vs pump, or what? What types of shotguns could you get here (I would like to get a Neosted to play with).

2) Where does the Airrow fit in? I presume if I get the cartridge based Ruger10/22 archery gun, it goes on the ticket as a 10/22 or .22 rifle and the fact that it can launch arrows is sundry. But what about the stealth gas version, that launches the arrow at 600fps? I presume that must go on the ticket like an over-powered air-rifle? Here's the page with the Airrow stuff:

http://www.swivelmachine.com/html/stealth.htm
 
To be a section 2 shotgun it must not have:

A detachable magazine

Any magazine capable of holding more than two rounds

A barrel less than 24 inches in length

A revolver mechanism

It must also be a smooth bore gun (musket or shotgun).

You can have pumps or semis it makes no difference, but the magazine must be fixed and hold no more than two rounds.

If it holds more than two rounds, or the magazine is detachable, then it's a section 1 shotgun.

A Neostead I believe is a revolver, so no matter what it could not be a section 2, and would have to be a section 1. You'd need a 24 inch barrel, or longer, which you'd need to order special as Neosteads don't have barrels that long as far as I know. For all the cost and trouble, you might as well get a Benelli.

Usually, bows and crossbows are not regulated in any way because they do not have barrels. That Airrow thing seems to have a rifled barrel making it a rifle under British law. Therefore, those which are not .22 RF must not be self-loading but otherwise I THINK they'd be legal but as always, ask your local firearms officer and check.
 
1) What is the difference between a Section 1 and Section 2 shotgun? Is it Semi-auto vs pump, or what? What types of shotguns could you get here (I would like to get a Neosted to play with).

A Neostead I believe is a revolver, so no matter what it could not be a section 2, and would have to be a section 1. You'd need a 24 inch barrel, or longer, which you'd need to order special as Neosteads don't have barrels that long as far as I know. For all the cost and trouble, you might as well get a Benelli.

If you arrived in the UK 19 years ago,you could have bought a Neosted over the counter,with a FAC:Section 1 license.You could have also had bought any section 1 assault rifle and a Vector pistol(up until mid 1996.)-but because of Hungerford and Dunblane-these options are no longer available,to you-the citizen.

In the UK,you can buy any shotgun,that has the specifications,that are stated by Fosbery.Riot shotguns are still legal providing that it has a minimum barrel length of 24" or more.

A standard Neostead is classed a prohibited shotgun,because it is a short-barrelled shotgun-but you could have it modified,to meet UK laws,but it is better to spend your money on the following shotguns: Spas 12,Spas 15,Saiga 12,Remington 870,etc.
 
Yeah, but an SPAS 12 just looks so god-dam cool!!!:D

IIRC SPAS 15 are more unreliable than the 12's?

Can you defend yourself.....
Yes and No.

If someone breaks in whilst you just happen to have your gun out of the safe that you keep it in 24/7, then you can use it to defend yourself, BUT explaining why you're cleaning a loaded rifle at 3am could take some doing.
 
SPAS 12??? Heavy unreliable piece of junk if you ask me. Benelli, Remington or a SPAS 15 would be money better spent.

I'm sorry. I thought we weren't actually allowed to comment on guns in Brit gun threads. :D
 
@ Fosbery

I was looking at this Neostead here:

http://users.iafrica.com/n/nj/njj741t/feature.html

But I suppose that may not even be produced/available. If it was available, I presume it would be Section 1 because of capacity.

I will make enquiries about the gas-powered archery gun. They can make a smooth-bored version of that and I wonder where it will find itself in the rules.
 
Whoops, I got mixed up with the Striker/Streetsweeper and the Neostead. Damn South Africans with their silly names :p

Ok, so it won't be a revolver so I suppose you could make it section 2. You'd probably need a gunsmith to limit that magazine though. If I remember correctly, it actually has two magazines, so theoretically it could hold 5 rounds and still be a section 2. You'd need to lengthen the barrel though.

If you had a smoothbore, single shot Airrow (or one with a magazine holding no more than two round) and a barrel no less than 24 inches in length, it would be section 2.
 
And to think...

...there was a time when I wanted to visit England.

I feel bad for the Brits, but unfortunately it seems that most of them have bought into the new wave of European anti-gun hype. If you think your average American is a sheep? Take a look at some of the comments Brits make about guns and gun control. They think we are violent barbarians here in the U.S. for wanting to own evil black rifles... "that were only made to kill people." They use phrases like "gun culture" with disdain. They also seem to 'feel secure' with cameras pointed everywhere and the government tracking every move their cars make. It's really 1984 over there. Even some of the comments by our English members seem to reflect this type of thinking to some extent.

Because it's for sport. Not for killing people.

Madness... Guns were designed to kill... efficiently and effectively... and no one should ever mistake or forget that. May I remind you, that if certain people didn't deploy guns on your behalf, in service to your country, TO KILL PEOPLE...

...you'd be posting on this site in German, sir.

The sad thing is, in general... the majority of the population seems happy about it, and they think that their country has the right idea.

"Those who would trade liberty for security..."
 
:D

I was being sarcastic.

Edit: The German thing, however, is not fallacy. I was not saying that Americans gained your freedom in WWII. However, what I was saying was that if your own countrymen did not fight the Nazi's... with guns... you be speaking Deutch, buddy.

That, I stand by.
 
No, I'd be posting in Russian.

Self-defence; that dog won't hunt here, no matter how much you tell us it ought to. You absolutely will not get any of the political parties to agree with such a view. They wouldn't even risk being soiled with it, and their answer would be, "Yes guns are made to kill and that's why nobody but soldiers and, on occasional necessity, policemen, should be allowed to play with them."
 
^Ah sorry, Mike. I thought you meant 'certain people' were Americans. No harm, no foul :)

Aye, seld-defence is an issue i.e. most parties want to show off how much they support self-defence. But no main stream party will put guns and self-defence together. I don't think we have any chance of gaining gun rights through proclaiming self-defence or warding off dictatorships (you know, like the one we have) so most people resign themselves to this and just say 'they're only for sport' which is really the best way to go in this country I'm afraid. Most shooters I have met agree with an armed citizenry, to one degree or another, but most would never say so in public because it would be suicidal for the shooting community.
 
Madness... Guns were designed to kill... efficiently and effectively... and no one should ever mistake or forget that. May I remind you, that if certain people didn't deploy guns on your behalf, in service to your country, TO KILL PEOPLE...

You sir, are correct. BUT, you have to realise that this (Sensible) line of thinking would get you labeled as a mentally unstable (OMG Wite narzi supreemarsisst terrororororist fashistt babee-kiling murdurrererrrererereer!!11) person here in Britain.

Oh, and German is a great language. You're using a (admittedly reworked/evolved + Latin influenced) 'cousin' of it now...


RINNATH AND HIDATH, MAEGDEN-CILDAN!

:D :D :D
 
Fosbery - I'm glad we cleared that up. I didn't realize how that might have looked until I re-read my own post. :)

You sir, are correct. BUT, you have to realise that this (Sensible) line of thinking would get you labeled as a mentally unstable (OMG Wite narzi supreemarsisst terrororororist fashistt babee-kiling murdurrererrrererereer!!11) person here in Britain.

How did this happen?!?

This is a serious question. I know about the school shootings and everything, but seriously... how did you guys go from having the same laws we have here, to having the very notion of wanting to defend one's self criminalized? Was it all a knee-jerk reaction to the shootings? Is there any talk of trying to re-claim your right to arms? Or is the general population over there so completely anti-gun that it's worthless?


It just doesn't seem to make sense. Of course, you could always move to the U.S. - considering what our currency is worth compared to yours, that might not be a bad move, either.

You'd have a lot of money left over to indulge your new, unrestricted hobby... as long as you don't move to Illinois or California :D
 
Well, up until the 20's guns were exactly the same as a loaf of bread or an arm chair: no restrictions at all.

Then the government got concerned over left-wing groups, some of them armed, who might cause a revolution, like in Russia. A certification system was introduced where you would have to pay a fee at the post office to purchase a gun and this would be kept on record.

Over time this become more elaborate, eventually evolving into the system we know today with the need for 'good reason', background checks, the need for referees, long waiting times, maximum ammount of ammunition and so on. These things were often not laws, but guidelines and policies so never got attention until it was too late. And even when they did or when they were laws, so few people owned guns that few people were bothered by it. Britain was tamed with bows and arrows long before firearms were invented, unlike America, so there was no history and tradition of gun ownership amongst ordinary people. The odd person might have a derringer or something, ex-army types might have a .22 rifle, and farmers and the aristocracy, maybe the odd bar-keep, had shotguns but that was about it.

Back then, people had enough trouble putting food on the table, let alone worrying about buying a gun.

Well, in 1945 the Home Office decided that self-defence (preservation of freedom etc) would no longer be a 'good reason'. Up until then, any reason was good enough really, but afterwards only things like hunting and target shooting were valid.

This decision was made in secret, it was not a law but a guideline for police to follow. It only became public in the 1980's.

So, we never realised that guns for the express purpose of self-defence were gone. They just faded away.

This way, people lost all empathy with gun owners because hardly anyone knew one or was one.

Constant media and government propoganda finished the job. We're relentlessly pounded with stories and articles about how we need to stop people carrying knives and guns, how guns are evil and so on. It's all done so well. You'll have a newsreader announce "A man was arrested last night for the muder of such and such and police say they have found a gun in his house". You barely think to say "Hang on, so what if he has a gun? He has every right to! You don't announce 'a draw full of kitchen knives was found'!" and after people who don't really care have heard it 1000 times, they accept that guns = bad.

Now, the only people who carry proper knives are criminals (except maybe carpet fitters,, hunters, electricians etc) so knives are associated with criminals. People assume that if you were allowed to carry knives whenever you wanted, the criminals would have it easy as there'd be on law stopping them. I know it makes no sense but people don't think about it too hard and when they do, they just sput government rhetoric like 'it's be taken away and used against you' and 'the police will protect you'. Same for guns. With the exception of the small shooting community, only criminals have guns so that's what they're associated with.
 
My dear American friends, you misunderstand!

Of course we all have the right to self defense here!


We just don't have the means to self defence. See, it's not that bad here you silly-billies. :rolleyes:

I think I just broke my sarcasm-meter. :D
 
In Australia we don't even have a right of self defense, let alone owning firearms for same.
I think our problem is a lingering convict/colonial attitude where we do what the bosses say cos they know best and who are we to question.
So much for the individual ANZAC spirit and all.
 
In Australia we don't even have a right of self defense, let alone owning firearms for same.
I think our problem is a lingering convict/colonial attitude where we do what the bosses say cos they know best and who are we to question.
So much for the individual ANZAC spirit and all.

True,but at least you held on to your pistols and pump-action centrefire rifles,unlike us in the UK.Why wern't pumps banned in 1997,along with the semi-auto rifles and semi-auto shotguns and pump-action shotguns? I would have thought that a rifle has a greater range than a shotgun:confused: except slug rounds.

By the way,your PM needs a brain transplant and needs to be desposed,oh sorry I meant deposed,from office.The same for Mr Blair too.

If Blair shoots a gun in the US,on Bushes ranch-then we can organize a pro-gun rally-outside of the Number 10 enclosure.Wake up Blair,you muppet and stop letting the GCN walk all over you.
 
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