UK. Gun-loving teacher is struck off (fired) amid fear of massacre

[NASCAR_MAN]

Such regimes as the USSR, People's Republic of China etc have been hierarchically, militaristic, expansionist and nationalist - all right-wing concepts. Indeed China today is also very capitalist by any definition (leaving aside the arguments around State capitalism).

If this is an inkling of what an average Brit thinks, then, as I have feared for a few years, the UK is doomed.

I am sorry, I just can't put it in any nicer terms.

 

[kentucky_smith]

Such regimes as the USSR, People's Republic of China etc have been hierarchically, militaristic, expansionist and nationalist - all right-wing concepts. Indeed China today is also very capitalist by any definition (leaving aside the arguments around State capitalism).

If this is an inkling of what an average Brit thinks, then, as I have feared for a few years, the UK is doomed.

I am sorry, I just can't put it in any nicer terms.

Woody is correct.

 

[Tommygunn]

Socialism and nationalism are by definition mutually exclusive concepts. The Nazis had no socialistic policies in practice at all, but did articulate as part of their early propaganda opposition to capitalism (and to the supposed fantastical Jewish/liberal/communist conspiracy to control the World).

This is simply wrong on its face.

Such regimes as the USSR, People's Republic of China etc have been hierarchically, militaristic, expansionist and nationalist - all right-wing concepts.

"Rightwing" has little to do with any of this, although the PRC is definatly Hierarchical, militaristic, and expansionist. So was Nazi Germany, the U.S.S.R., and even America (expansionist) in its early years -- though we were never communists or socialists.

"I think what really muddies the water in people's eyes" is that the political spectrum, while usually drawn as either <------Left-----*----------Right------> is actually more properly drawn as a circle. Freedom is at 12 midnight, and at the 6 o'clock position is totalitarianism, which can be either right or leftwing.

The Nazis were absolutly socialists, as how they treated industry. That is not really the most glaringly important aspect of Nazism in many ways; it's sort of like saying Hitler was kind to his dog, Blondi. Maybe he was, but mention the name, and people will NOT think first of Hitler's affection for his pets, they think of his tyranny, destruction, and the holocaust, and with good reason. There are socialist systems which have not engaged in severe depredations on humanity, and if they still do not allow man the full measure of freedom then they should not be praised, but neither should they be condemned as Hitler.
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics called itself socialist but was actually communist, and in that iteration, democracy, socialism, were both roads on the way to communism. Both the PRC, the USSR, and Nazi Germany would position themselves at the 6:00 position on that "circle" of the political spectrum.

By contrast 'liberal' capitalism claims to be the safe guarder of democracy, freedom of expression, individual liberty etc.

This claim can certainly be refuted, but what I refute is the claim being made in the first place. I certainly never made it or heard it, nor was I ever promised it.

 

[hopkin]

Tommygunn:

And there's nothing in this political spectrum involving monarchy at all. Monarchies pre-date this political spectrum anyway, so that's just anachronistic.

Monarchy is at the heart of the increasingly confusing terms left- and right-wing. It comes from the French National Assembly, where the nobles sat on the right and radicals sat on the left. In Europe conservatives are the remnants of the pro-monarchy crowd with lefties being the people who wanted more social justice etc.

I hate the terms because apart from being confusing they seem to be very different when used in the US. For example, in the US conservatives see themselves as anti-monarchy (republican), not pro-monarchy.

I was being sarky when I mentioned Bill of the Wandering Penis. However, to me it seems the terms liberal and socialist are routinely mis-used by conservatives, always negative. Look at gunsmiths comment about liberals being offended so easily. Broad stereotype that I don't see holding true. The loony left is over-sensitive but so is the loony right that sees a socialist aganda behind everything they don't agree with.

Strangely I agree the germans were totalitarian but don't think that excludes them from being right-wing. To be honest I think when countries go that far it's hard to label them one way or the other. Edit: you're clock analogy works well.

 

[Tommygunn]

Strangely I agree the germans were totalitarian but don't think that excludes them from being right-wing. To be honest I think when countries go that far it's hard to label them one way or the other.

They were socialist in how they treated business. A great many Americans think the Nazis were right wing, primarily (IMHO) because we here are infested with a few nutcakes called "neonazies" or "skinheads" who adopt the Hockencruez or swastika, praise Hitler, buy lots of guns, and think of themselves as ideological extensions of Hitler's brand of brownshirt boobery. These neonazies are generally right-wingers -- extremely, unpleasantly, so. But I also think they have no true comprehension of what Hitler's iteration of nazism was, the terrors it brought, or much else. Sorta hard to blame them, really, when you consider that if they have the intellectual ability to tie their shoelaces then that in itself is a praiseworthy act -- for them.
It's also used as a slur against the right by left-wingers who don't understand that they are often as extreme to their position as they perceive the right wingers. Sometimes it's easier to see the difference or space between between the points of view itself than its actual position on any political spectrum.
And, yeah, when countries go as far as the nazis did, it makes little difference. Fascism is often thought of as rightwing extremeism. I don't truly think it is, myself, I think it's left, but it is truly right down at that 6:00 position next to nazism. Whether right or left of nazism is of little import when both ideologies have been so harsh toward human freedom.

... to me it seems the terms liberal and socialist are routinely mis-used by conservatives, always negative. Look at gunsmiths comment about liberals being offended so easily. Broad stereotype that I don't see holding true. The loony left is over-sensitive but so is the loony right that sees a socialist aganda behind everything they don't agree with.

Instead of thinking of it as a "stereotype" (which it probably is) think of it as a generalization. We all make them ... or we run the risk of producing long cumbersome lists of exceptions.
I myself am a conservative ... with libertarian tendencies. I think a lot of liberal/left-wing ideas are just plain wrong and dangerous to human freedoms. Not all are, or course, but in the general course of things, they will most generally be dangerous than not. Likewise, I am on some occasions disturbed by so called "right-wing" ideas because they seem dangerous. But this is the "exception" not the rule.
Labels are easy.
Reality is NOT.
But, like it or not, unfortunatly, sometimes for the sake of expediency, we do resort to labels.
*SIGH*
Not really great ... but human ... I guess .....

 

[macFarlaine]

Hello,teacher, guns school.You sound like a bunch of over paid lawyers discussing the price of mens underwear...

 

[hopkin]

Whether right or left of nazism is of little import when both ideologies have been so harsh toward human freedom.

Well, we can agree on that. With that, I'm heading home, and I'll be thinking about this for a while.

 

[DDude]

Its now a crime in the UK to "Think" impure thoughts.

Hope that doesn't happen over here. My thoughts often tend to run toward "impure" whenever I see a pretty seatcover passing me on the highway.

 

[gunsmith]

guns in his car

In the article it says that "the staff is terrified he may keep guns in the boot (trunk) of his car"

All that means is to me is the teachers are paranoid, much like when liberals here presume that if you CCW that your intention is to go kill someone.

The firearms certificates had been revoked because of the "propaganda and indoctrination" to which Mr Nicoll subjected pupils at Grantown Grammar, which he joined in 1979.

Eh, I wouldn't send any kid of mine to a school anywhere in the UK, I lived with plenty of people from the UK and their education seemed to be only "propaganda and indoctrination"... actually American schools are little better but we can home school if we choose, also based on region, have teachers who believe in God given rights.

When I said that liberals are easily offended I wasn't trying to be offensive
and I apologize if that was taken that way.
edited to add
I apologize for my previous apology in which I mention a certain group
that is easily offended, I should have said certain groups are easily offended, not "liberals are easily offended"
edited to add
I apologize for my apology and the apology before that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7p1Di1rXuk

 

[ArmedBear]

Police had revoked his gun licences three years ago because of his extreme right-wing views.

Scary.

It's entirely possible that he is a nutty jerk, but no guns if you have "views" they don't like?

I may disagree wholeheartedly with, say, people who hold Marxist views. These people include many teachers at all levels. But I would never want them to be denied RKBA for it.

If they take to the streets with their guns in the name of Marxist Revolution, by all means, shoot them. But until someone does that, what he or she thinks and feels is not the state's business -- it can change daily, too, if people really are trying to think things through for themselves.

 

[macFarlaine]

Schools in the UK are amongst the best in the world.My daughter who is 12 is not indoctrated in any way shape or form.She speaks French,Spanish and Greek,has visited Auchwitz in Poland and is due to tour France 08.Guns and firearms are talked about in relevant lessons.She is known as a hunter and has had no problems with the fact her father is a gunmaker.

 

[ArmedBear]

has visited Auchwitz in Poland

Oh, I'll bet she got a heavy dose of anti-Nazi propaganda on that trip, though.

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

hopkin Quote:
Well, we can agree on that. With that, I'm heading home, and I'll be thinking about this for a while.
==========================================

You mean....you're going to commit "Thought Crime"? Aren't you afraid of the "Ministry of Love" - or whatever you call it over there on AirStrip One?

Just joking! (for now, at least)

 

[ArmedBear]

By contrast 'liberal' capitalism claims to be the safe guarder of democracy, freedom of expression, individual liberty etc.

I have not heard such a claim.

The free market is what it is, and nothing more, not the guardian of anything else.

Democracy, for that matter, is not the guardian of liberty, either. That can be demonstrated easily with a little stroll through history.

Free markets, free political, artistic and other forms of expression, trials by jury, private property, and free elections, are all separate liberties. Hence our Bill of Rights specifies separate liberties separately, as, I believe, does yours.

woody, it sounds like you're getting a fair dose of indoctrination yourself, perhaps as part of your "retraining" as a teacher. Do the ruling classes in the UK want "education" to produce good serfs? Sounds like it. Here, they do too, and we don't even have the grand tradition of serfdom that you have.

 

[macFarlaine]

I think most people who visit Auchwitz are rather taken aback with what the Nazis did...the place speaks for itself,words are meaningless.

 

[lance22]

Sounds sufficiently smeared. Sounds like the Press is doing it's job of "brainwashing and indoctrination".

 

[macFarlaine]

What is Airstrip one ?

 

[brighamr]

To the OP:

If I'm understanding this correctly, a teacher in the UK can not show any of the following in the classroom:

War documentaries
Any terrorist act
Any gun related "propaganda"

In addition, if a teacher in the UK thinks of anything outside of what the gov wants you to think, said teacher can be fired?

Wow. Just Wow.

 

[ArmedBear]

I think most people who visit Auchwitz are rather taken aback with what the Nazis did.

Perhaps not to a British reader, but to an American one, that has to be one of the funniest sentences ever written here. Darkly funny, anyway. Can I use that as a quote?

(I'm allowed to laugh. My parents and entire extended family survived the Nazis and I grew up with firsthand descriptions of things that even a trip to Auschwitz doesn't necessarily make clear, so I take it all pretty damn seriously.)

 

[macFarlaine]

brighamar..Untrue they watch documetaries,DVD's all relating to war and firearms.My daughters history teacher is pro gun,pro hunting,her Spanish teacher is likeminded.
Again reading is not always believing especially were the British media are concerned.

 

[macFarlaine]

Armed bear I do not understand what you are trying to say ?

 

[ArmedBear]

Have you seen the "Death" section of Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, and the monologue that the Grim Reaper does about British vs. American speech and social customs, and how we express things differently?

"Rather taken aback" is an absolutely classic example of British understatement. Americans tend to feel the need, for whatever reason, and if it is possible, to overstate such things, just to make sure everyone knows how we "really feel." I'm not sure I'm expressing this as well as I'd like; Monty Python's Grim Reaper did a better job, and funnier, too.

 

[macFarlaine]

No !

 

[macFarlaine]

Ah sorry a little slow today.I take the trip seriously,my daughter went as a Jew as did her parents.

 

[ArmedBear]

Oh no, I never thought for a moment that you didn't take it seriously, just that your words were a classic example of how, as George Bernard Shaw quipped, "England and America are two countries separated by a common language."

All in good fun, of course, and without any assumption on my part that either side of the Atlantic has things right, linguistically speaking.

Here's a blog about that... http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/