Unfortunate encounter at the range.

[Funderb]

I will do my best to be completely objective about this, though that is not a human function.

A couple friends and I, who are all over 18, and non-felons, decided to head out to the range to celebrate this rainy valentines day at the local F&W public range in the city where I go to school.
It was a great day to go to the range, it was rainy, and a holiday, and we expected few people there. (Not because we are snobs, but because I really don't like shooting when the lines are packed with bump firing ak guys and other kids shooting their new 9mils as fast as they possibly can.)
There are two lanes at this range, one pistol/short distance anything range, and one long distance range with targets at 50 and 100 yards. These lanes are separated by a 7 or 8 foot concrete wall, and have 15' berms with overhead angled steel traps that rise another 10 feet.
We were the only people on the longer range, shooting a .22, my cz52 and a brand new shotgun, trying out the function and chokes. The majority shot that day was probably my .22, which my friends love because it is a tack driver. (I shot a flying bumble bee with it last time we were there)
Either way, we shot our fair share, and began to pick up all of out trash, some of other people's trash, and just try to be responsible range users.
When we get back to behind the benches a man from the other, short lane approaches us,
"Excuse me gentlemen, I'm an off duty police officer, are any of you over the age of 21?"
me- "No sir"
Man- "Well, none of you are supposed to be here."
me- "I'm sorry sir, we didn't know that, we'll be happy to leave right now, we are cleaning up now, actually."
Man- "Have any of you taken a hunter's safety course? Who's the oldest one here?"
(I am unsure over this question, and volunteer myself, being the oldest my a few months.)
Man- "How old are you?"
Me- "20, sir."
Man- "Have you taken a hunter's safety course?"
(I pause, thinking if the mandatory firearms safety course I've taken for my membership at my home range in jax counts, probably not.)
me - "hmm, no sir, I haven't"
Man- "WELL, you are not allowed to be here with your friends unless you have some one else who is 21 or older."
me- "Yes, I thought, well, you are right, we'll be leaving now sir."
Man- "Well, I have a problem with something you did today."
(Me thinking, uh oh, I must have missed something my friends did, I thought I was being watchful and responsible....)
Man- "You guys all walked down range while we still had loaded weapons on our side, thats how people get killed, and it is stupid."
me- "Yes sir, that was very dumb of us, I'm sorry that happened."

(brief aside: At the range where I am a member, it is common policy to have ranges that are divided the way this one is operate independently of one another, with this setup any "strays" crossing to other ranges would be the result of extreme negligence. You may have a different opinion, but this is how I have seen things run since I was 8, and I am used to it.)

Man- "Well, I think you guys need to make your weapons safe and just leave now. I'm being nice about this, I could have just called my buddies and had them confiscate your weapons and write you guys a bunch of tickets."
me- "Well, thank you sir, I appreciate your leniency."
(thinking, WTFO? We have done nothing illegal here, you can't write a ticket for anything, let alone CONFISCATE my firearms, or my friend's.)
I left with a casual, "Have a good valentines day, guys" thrown over the shoulder at the remaining people shooting with the "off duty cop", trying to be decent and polite.

There is the story.
Now my opinion, I am flustered. He made me look like a fool, and lost face, in my own opinion on how my friends, who look up to me for safety instruction, because I have been shooting for 12 years, and am VERY concerned over safety. I walked down range on out portion because I felt safe, and thats how I've done it since the dawn of my shooting years. You guys are free to call me stupid, and I realize that I should have made the other portion of the range go cold. We were relying on other people to be responsible, and this is a public range, and I should have assumed that they had not been trained in safety, and not trustable.
I wish the man had just addressed us without pulling rank, be it legitimate or not. He may have done that deliberately to make us submissive, but it was unnecessary, we are all polite, responsible, and willing to listen to those who may have a problem.
Anyone got an opinion, of any type?
Try to keep it tame, I am already flustered, so don't just call me a "stupid m#%^&$^F@$%$#"
/rant


one DEMAND,

no cop bashing. Period.

 

[BCCL]

First thing you might do, is try to get an actual written copy of the rules for that range.

"I'm an off duty police officer" does not necessarily mean that he knows them and is supposed to be "running" things.

You were right to keep cool at the time.

Unfortunately, shooting ranges sometimes attract self-appointed "experts".

 

[statelineblues]

Sounds like somebody who just wanted to throw his weight around; maybe he thought you were being unsafe, but I think he could have handled it better.

Man- "Have you taken a hunter's safety course?"
(I pause, thinking if the mandatory firearms safety course I've taken for my membership at my home range in jax counts, probably not.)
me - "hmm, no sir, I haven't.

Did you get a certification card or some other proof of taking this course? I would have told him (politely, of course!) that I had attended a safety course at the range where I was a member.

I think you handled it quite well, considering the situation.

 

[Boba Fett]

Man- "WELL, you are not allowed to be here with your friends unless you have some one else who is 21 or older."

Is that a range rule? Because if you are just shooting shotguns and rifles and are over 18, I don't see the problem.

"You guys all walked down range while we still had loaded weapons on our side, thats how people get killed, and it is stupid."

I have to agree with the officer on this one. Walking down range while still in "live fire" mode is just asking to be killed.


Just my humble opinion here, but the officer did his job. Maybe he went overboard with the tickets and gun confiscation comments, but I imagine he was just trying to scare the point into you. He has a responsibility to look out for the safety of others and I imagine he wouldn't have said anything to you if you didn't walk down range during live fire. Even if he wasn't there, I would hope a range officer or some other responsible person there would have given you grief about going down range during live fire.

My 2 cents for what it's worth.

 

[azhunter122]

He's probably not a police officer or at least not a sworn officer becuase in my state you only have to be 18 to OC or any age to practice. Range rules, you have to be a rangemaster and warn you before law enforcement can actually take action, thats my understanding anyways.

 

[jerkface11]

I have to agree with the officer on this one. Walking down range while still in "live fire" mode is just asking to be killed.

He said there is a dividing wall. So it's really 2 ranges. The "cop" was just being a jerk. Of course cop or not there's something to be said for minding ones own business.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

First thing you might do, is try to get an actual written copy of the rules for that range.

Agreed, as well as knowing the law in your state re: possession of handguns by 18-21-year-olds.

"I'm an off duty police officer" does not necessarily mean that he knows them and is supposed to be "running" things.

Agreed. Also, what agency was he with, does said agency have jurisdiction at that location, and does the agency give full arrest powers off duty? Without more information I would not want to go so far as to say he was overstepping his bounds or anything.

 

[twoclones]

I had a lot of frustration with various LEOs when I was young because of all the unsolicited advice they gave me. The good news is that it gets better as you get older and start to look like their grandfather

 

[FlyinBryan]

if he was truly an off duty police officer, i really dont see how you can question his actions, or his neverending pursuit for the safety of the public.

being an officer of the law, its in his very nature to protect you, and know better than you, about what what you should do.

off duty or not, his weapons and combat training are clearly superior to anyone outside of law enforcement or military service.

(you said absolutely no cop bashing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJaTEdD0

 

[twoclones]

FlyinBryan resorts to Cop Un-Bashing LOL

 

[FlyinBryan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZSKen1Vgc&feature=related

 

[Boba Fett]

He said there is a dividing wall. So it's really 2 ranges. The "cop" was just being a jerk.

This makes the assumption that accidents can't happen. That is like pointing a loaded gun at someone and saying, "It's ok, the safety is on."

A 7-8 foot dividing wall isn't enough for me to walk out there during live fire.

Plus, just because you think you are alone on your section of the range doesn't mean someone else can't arrive and start shooting while you are down range. Or maybe you just got too wrapped up having fun with friends that you didn't notice the other person arrive before you went down range.

Maybe you can account for all those variables, but I personally would never walk down range during live fire even if I was the only one on the range. I would wait until the range marshal called a cease fire and said it was clear to go down range.

 

[A-FIXER]

I would get a copy of range rules or ask the RO at our range it's only good and sound to ask the next shooter if its ok to take a break to police the area don't let this occurance change you, this fellow officer could have set the example of what to do properly on this range if he cared of our sport keeping our young people involved keeping the sport going into the next generation. Don't be to hard on your self because of someone's status in the world sometimes (POWER OR KNOWLEDGE CORRUPTS).... Hang in there and follow the wisdom of elders allows you to function with people of our sometimes crazy world and bullying doesn't get you too far. IMHO......

 

[Otis]

If you really think you did something wrong then accept the criticism, no mater how it was portrayed, and go on. If you dont think you did anything wrong the just let it go. People will do what people will do. The fact is that person may or may not have been a LEO. He my just be someone who gets off by throwing their weight around.

Without actually seeing your range I dont think i can come to a conclusion as to if you were doing anything wrong or not. Yes the man was acting like an A$$ but you should be proud that you did not make a big deal of it at the time. One good thing he did do though was now you will probably think twice before going down range without both ranges being cold. Could prevent something bad.

Otis

 

[jcwit]

My first response would have been, May I see your badge & what is your name?

However I think he as an individual was right stating not going down range. Only takes one mishap from the other (short) range.

Typical of someone needing an ego adjustment.

 

[jerkface11]

just because you think you are alone on your section of the range doesn't mean someone else can't arrive and start shooting while you are down range

That could happen anywhere. So I take it you simply never go downrange.

 

[Mainsail]

"Excuse me gentlemen, I'm an off duty police officer, are any of you over the age of 21?"
me-

Here's what you should have said:

me- "Are you detaining me?"

Just because someone talks to you does not obligate you to have a conversation.

 

[elrod]

You were on private property. Unless he was a range officer, or some one in authority at the range filed a complaint, it was none of his darn business, IMHO. Is it against the law for a minor to possess a gun in Florida? If not, let him toss you in jail, or confisicate your arms, then sue the heck out of him. Right is right, sounds like (from your narrative) that this guy is being a jerk, and you have done nothing wrong. You showed yourself to be a better man than he.

 

[Funderb]

Well, Thanks for the responses, and laughs, flyinbryan,
and others.

Range rules: Read them on the way in and out, and today on the FWC website. Nothing about needing someone 21 or a safety course, though one is offered there. Standard range rules, 4 rules plus hot cold etc.
It is a public range, so there is no RO.

I was shooting my cz52, a pistol, trying to keep it on paper, well, cardboard, at 100 yards.
In florida it is legal for me to posses a pistol. I've checked many many times and asked lawyers to be safe. I don't want to go to prison. Really.
Granted, I was the only one shooting the pistol, and it is mine, but that's beside the point.
I totally respect the guys opinion and am grateful for the concern.


and if I am not mistaken, there lies some tricky sarcasm in the posts by flyinbryan, either way though, it made me laugh.

 

[.38 Special]

My range operates the same as the OP's. It is a very common setup in my experience. I assume that the people claiming that the whole range needs a line break in order for you to walk downrange in your own lane have never actually seen this type of range.

My home range is supervised full-time by a rangemaster and at least one RO. Under that supervision, people at each individual lane will agree upon a ceasefire, unload and lay them on the benches, and then head downrange. No one cares what is going on in the other lanes, because it is essentially impossible to take fire from them. And during competition it is a "hot range", meaning everyone is walking around loaded and holstered, even while on line break and downrange. This is all considered perfectly safe and I have never seen any problems arise from it.

 

[sixshooterfan]

These lanes are separated by a 7 or 8 foot concrete wall, and have 15' berms with overhead angled steel traps that rise another 10 feet.

Sounds like my local range. Walking down to check targets on the rifle range is totally fine while there is live fire on the pistol range. They are separate, operate separate, big divider berm and wall between them. So long as everyone on the rifle range has unloaded and opened their actions for an agreed-upon ceasefire, it doesn't matter what is going on at the pistol range.

You did very well though. When someone is being belligerent/argumentative around guns, just stay cool, apologize, and de-escalate the situation as soon as possible.

 

[AK103K]

I have to agree with the officer on this one. Walking down range while still in "live fire" mode is just asking to be killed.

If the "cop" was so concerned, about any of what he questioned you about, why didnt he say something right away? I know if there was a safety issue, I would have, and I'm not a cop.

"I'm an off duty police officer"

So's my dog.

If he didnt show a badge, (especially if you ask him to) hes as much a cop as my dog. If he was a cop, he should have produced the badge. If he had told me he was a cop, and didnt show his badge, I'd have asked for it and his ID (and for one of his cards). If he didnt provide one, whip out the old cell phone and tell him you are calling the police, and do so. See what he says to that.


I agree with knowing the ranges rules, and the laws of the state your in, especially in regards to hanguns and people under 21. You can save yourself a lot of aggravation by knowing the rules and laws, and you'll be way ahead of those who might try to BS you.

Just because your younger, doesnt mean you dont have rights, nor does it mean you cant question (politely of course, as you did) those who would question you. I learned early on in life, the sooner you speak up and directly question authority (and especially if you know the rules, laws, and your rights) the quicker you get to the point, if there turns out to even be one at all. More often than not, their whole demeanor changes when you challenge them. Usually in your favor, and especially if they were on shaky ground to start. I'm not saying escalate something trivial into a fight or something worse, simply, and politely, just ask for proof. If they get testy, you turn it around and you call the cops. At the very least, your version is first and on tape. I'd also leave the line open until the cops got there.

 

[Boba Fett]

jerkface11

just because you think you are alone on your section of the range doesn't mean someone else can't arrive and start shooting while you are down range

That could happen anywhere. So I take it you simply never go downrange.

jerkface, the rest of my post said to wait until the range marshal sounds the all clear to go down range. The point being that if the range is hot, walking down range is not safe. Please do not take someone's comments out of context just to snipe at them.

If you have an actual point, then I'm all for reading it. But make sure you keep things in context. Thanks

 

[CountGlockula]

Next time, bring someone who's over 21.

 

[Bush Pilot]

I doubt he was a cop, you should have asked to see his badge, around here they are required to carry it even off duty. The next time you're there go to the RO and speak to him about the incident, the guy may have been legit or just tossing his weight around.