Unintended Consequences

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John, FTR I think that UC is absolutely the best of the so-called gun nut fantasy fiction, or whatever detractors care to label it. I enjoyed EFD, and Zalman's 'Hope,' and while I like Vin's op-ed pieces, have thus far been unable to get through The Black Arrow. But UC is in my opinion head and shoulders above the rest, transcending the genre and standing on its own as a worthy piece of fictionwriting. I look forward to reading more of your work.

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I thought I made it clear (but apparently didn't) that this particular action (and others) was COPYCAT behavior, escalated by persons unknown after the video was made public.

It was quite clear to me. As a matter of fact Henry went to some trouble to critique such behavior. IIRC, he said that opening the door to the ATF and spraying it down, was NOT the way to go....or something like that. BTW, after I finish my 10th reading, (just on 4 now) I'm sure I will get all the quotes right. ;) :D
 
Beyond hot pepper juice, I don'r recall having Henry torture anyone.
That was torture. Besides, I recall that he became a bit cold blooded in his killing. I found it hard to like a cold blooded killer. I liked him fine before that stage, however. The scene with the .22 pistol and night vision goggles was great. The chopper shoot down was great. When he started popping helpless unarmed individuals, many of whom were likely sincere in their belief that they were doing good (even if wrong), I had to stop reading. Might try it again though. From what I hear, it is worth reading the entire book, even if you have to hold your nose at points.
 
I thought I made it clear (but apparently didn't) that this particular action (and others) was COPYCAT behavior, escalated by persons unknown after the video was made public. If the plotline is that others are drawn into the fight, it would be unrealistic to think that NO ONE in the entire country would go beyond what we here might deem "acceptable" tyranny-resisting behavior.

Mr. Ross,

It was clear that this was a copycat incident, and not something done by Henry Bowman.

What bothered me about that scene was the idea that an average citizen is so outraged by what happened at Waco that they would condone the murder of children. I'm not referring to the killer(s), but the neighbors who refused to help with the investigation.


[BLOCKQUOTE]
The wife's behind the old guy, and she's sitting in a wheelchair, so the SAC asks her for a statement. Did she hear anything, see anything out the window? She says, 'You want a statement? Okay, Mister FBI man. People who play with fire sometimes get burned.' Then she laughs and shuts the door in his face."
[/BLOCKQUOTE]

That struck me as something written by somebody who really needs to get out of the echo chamber once in a while. (To some degree that applies to a lot of us here, myself included).
 
Boy, if outright war/armed rebellion/etc. ever happens in this country, it is painfully clear whose side many people here are going to be on.

:barf:
 
There was a part in the book that Henry brought up this subject, he said that your going to have to be able to kill someone just like you. Someone that has kids, parents..... He told the others if they couldn't do that they needed to get out now before it started. This would be the only way to get the message across to the Government.

Many people talk the talk but aren't willing to walk the walk. When the SHTF for real, it'll be time to put up or shut up. If you can't handle having to shoot someone willing to take away your rights and kill you in the process, you need to rethink which side of the fence you're on.
 
Beer & Pizza Money

UC is a dystopia, a novel warning against a possible future (a bad future, in the author’s opinion). The early parts of UC are laying the ground work for both the situation, and the protagonist. We see, in the case of Henry Bowman:

0) An outline of the history of the American gun culture;
1) Henry learns that governments can abuse their own citizens (his uncle’s brother-in-law in the Warsaw ghetto 1930s-1940s; the Negroes in USA in the 1950s and prior; the story of his great uncle in the Bonus Army in the 1930s);
2) On the camping trip where he saves a rape victim from being murdered he learns that armed citizens can do good; that unarmed folks can be hurt by criminals, that one can ‘get away with’ killing by keeping one’s mouth shut;
3) The gang rape of Henry reinforce the lessons of 2). Emphasizes that an individual is ON HIS OWN, when it comes to your own safety & security. Also inspires him to take up thinking about, then teaching, self defense;
4) This leads to the next point - in the college poli-sci class when Henry asks the question “When is it time?” to resist government tyranny – when the gov puts speed limits on open roads is too soon, when you’re starved down to 70 lbs. in prison camp is too late – those are the examples Henry uses;
5) We see more abuses of gov power in the USA until;
6) Henry finds out “Now is the time to shoot”. Of course, the time is forced upon him; he doesn’t decide one day that ‘this is too far’. The BATF raid on Kane’s house, and Henry’s re-action of killing in self defense (before he knows the raiders are BATmen) precipitate his ‘now it is time to shoot’ decision.

Note that the Declaration of Independence was made on 2 July 1776 (the press release was on the 4th), while the shooting started on 19 April 1775, more than a year earlier. Historically, the ‘time to shoot’ decision usually is made on the spur of the moment, when someone is pushed too far; the justification for shooting is made in retrospect. Also, the general populace waits to see if the ‘time is right’, by waiting to see if others start shooting – crowd behavior.

The sex scenes are there to make the story & characters more interesting, to give motivation to the Cindy character, to make some of the hits easier (having the Cindy character to set up the Abel and Siteman kills); the fallout of the Abel and Schaumberg kills during sexual relations served to discredit the congresscritters, and to throw off the investigations – i.e., it was a tactical decision to cover the tracks of the killers-terrorists-freedom fighters-whatever euphemism you want to use… The kiddieporndrugoverdose kill of the Missouri governor was also a method of disguising one’s tracks. Note, that except for that brave freedom fighter Willie Blair, not one of the folks we get to know during the book tout their kills; not the drycleaner, the aviator, the Missouri politician, none of Henry’s group. They all keep their mouths’ shut.

The whole of the “War” section of the book is, if you will, a fictionalized textbook on asymmetrical warfare, or 4th generation warfare. When one side has a preponderance of combat power, the other side cannot fight on the stronger side’s terms – you lose. So, like those farmers in April 1775, the weaker side ‘cheats’ – hides behind walls and trees, wears brown and green clothes, snipes with rifles at the guys wearing the bright red coats marching in straight lines armed with unrifled muskets. While the US federal government has tens of thousands of investigators, and the state and local governments have close to one million law enforcement officers, and ‘the populace’ numbers perhaps 50-100 million adults, the combat power is on the side of the various governmental entities. Hence, Henry has to rely on fighting asymmetrically – he can’t attack the other side in a stand up battle – it has to be hit and run. Attacking the moral position of the stronger side is another tactic used in 4th generation war – M.K. Gandhi used it against the British in India, Bin Laden is using it now against us (though we don’t see eye to eye with him on the morality part, but that is a common theme in Al Qaeda’s press releases – the immorality of the US and the West), and Henry’s guys attacked the morality of governmental busybodies by setting up a lot of the deaths as seamy sex crimes… AND, the great freedom fighter Wilson Blair keeps mentioning the violations of the powers granted the government in the Constitution – an attack on the institutional and individual morality of the Feds.

The ‘sex scenes’ are generally used as a necessary part of the story. Could have been more explicit, could have been less explicit – a choice by the writer and his editors. As Heinlein said, the writer of fiction is competing for beer and pizza money.
 
FDS, I can't improve on your analysis.

BTW I can't count the numer of readers who have emailed/written that the scene in poli-sci class asking "when is it not too early, but not too late?" was, for them, the single most thought-provoking passage in the entire book.

And your Heinlein quote, while I've never heard it before, is EXACTLY what is on my mind as I write.

JR
 
When he started popping helpless unarmed individuals, many of whom were likely sincere in their belief that they were doing good (even if wrong), I had to stop reading.

I thought that defense went out the window with Nuremberg. These "people" were elected to "uphold and defend the constitution." I had a hard time feeling sorry for the ones who crapped on it.
 
ok, so everyone is saying "great analysis fds" (and it is)

but how many people understand that this is what the "War on Terror" is about?

do you understand that if "we" .... "win" ... the "War on Terror" .... that we are essentially making impossible the exact situation described in UC?

that is why the patriot act and the extra fbi powers, and the spying on citizens, and sneek and peeks, and everything else bush is doing is all oriented towards discovering the Henry Bowmans before they can stir up sympathy and gain critical mass?


it's quite a peculiar conundrum... damned if you do, damned if you don't. either we keep our Freedoms and play whack-a-mole with the muslims, or we give in to the inevitable systemmatic oppression of big government for a chance of "safety".


personally, i *think* too many of my peers would rather poke fun at the government's propensity for declaring war on inanimate objects; typical political smoke and mirrors, posturing, saying something to look like you're doing something.

BOHICA
 
The Sons of Liberty were not exactly forced into assaulting loyalists and government agents.
 
but how many people understand that this is what the "War on Terror" is about?

That's a bit hard to answer, because the definition of "War on Terror" seems to change. I think the most accurate definition of the WoT is "terrorists are whoever we say they are."

I think the WoT should be about hunting down the Wahabbi sect and destroying them. Ideally, I'd like to see systematical destruction of its infrastructure, discreditting its ideals and turning everyone against said ideals.


do you understand that if "we" .... "win" ... the "War on Terror" .... that we are essentially making impossible the exact situation described in UC?

that is why the patriot act and the extra fbi powers, and the spying on citizens, and sneek and peeks, and everything else bush is doing is all oriented towards discovering the Henry Bowmans before they can stir up sympathy and gain critical mass?

And what if the WoT was never meant to be 'won'? Terrorism is a tactic of warfare. It's akin to declaring war on a flanking movement, or a pincer maneuver. (Yes, I vastly oversimplify and remove all ethics/morality from the analogy.) Terrorism is a concept, not a tangable object.

Again, this is why I believe that we should be focusing more on the Wahabbis. It is fundimentally impossible to stamp out "terrorism", for the reasons I just meantioned. You can only search out and punish those that commit it. You can try to secure sensitive positions. You can't stop people from making explosives, building homemade rifles, toxins, poisons, etc no matter how many restrictions any government puts together.

In UC, notice that almost none of the politicians Bowman executed were killed with a firearm. Drugs, kitchen knife, pickup truck, etc. It is impossible to ban such objects, just as it is impossible to ban a way of thinking. That's what guerilla warfare is, moreso than anything else. It is an attitude and a way of thinking. The tools of the trade can vastly vary. The VC were very successful with armed hit and runs as well as improvised explosives, the Iranians took hostages and funded outside groups, etc etc.


it's quite a peculiar conundrum... damned if you do, damned if you don't. either we keep our Freedoms and play whack-a-mole with the muslims, or we give in to the inevitable systemmatic oppression of big government for a chance of "safety".

No it's not. We can grind the Wahabbis into the ground, and salt the earth in which they are buried. We can remove their feeder system and dismantle their support infrastructure. We can make it clear that we are after a very specific group of individuals that kill more Muslims than they do Americans.

Turing this war into a war against a specific ethnic group or religion dooms it to bloody and costly failure.

We need not allow the destruction of our freedoms to accomplish this either. To believe so buys into the theory that the only possible choices are death or slavery. Those two options are NOT the only possible choices, unless you lock your brain into thinking they are. By doing so, you've already lost.
 
that's what i'm saying... it's not about the Wahabbis, or islam. it's exactly about the tactic of terrorism.

terrorism is simply using horrible (but largely superficial) acts to scare people into changing their behavior.

groups of extremists feel powerless to effect change. they feel unrepresented by government. the most effective way for them to make themselves heard is via terrorism.

they're not going to beat us with conventional methods (from warfare to get-out-the-vote drives), but democracy is very vulnerable to terrorism. if you don't think so, just look at the way spain caved in: bomb a train and the gov pulls all their troops from iraq.


the people in our government who are interested in maintaining power realize that terror is an achillies heel.

just look at the vast array of minorities trying to change our lives by using 'terror'. they range from far-left nutjobs like eco-terrorists, spiking trees to terrorize loggers, and the PETA types throwing buckets of blood on people wearing furs.... to far right nutjobs bombing abortion clinics, and everybody in between.

i'm telling you, the domestic actions our government is taking in the 'war on terror' make it OBVIOUS that they are not focused on islamic nutjobs.

the government has said over and over and over that the war won't be 'won' when we find bin Ladin. he's not even that important anymore.



and re: UC, you miss the point entirely. the terror there was that the ATF was afraid of The People. the guns and bombs and knives and pickup trucks aren't the problem. they were quiting their jobs because they were afraid to go to work. hence, terrrorism. banning implements is irrelevant.


also, i'm not understanding what you're saying here

I think the WoT should be about hunting down the Wahabbi sect and destroying them.

and then here

Turing this war into a war against a specific ethnic group or religion dooms it to bloody and costly failure.

is it just me, or are you proposing something you claim is doomed to bloody and costly failure?
 
and re: UC, you miss the point entirely. the terror there was that the ATF was afraid of The People. the guns and bombs and knives and pickup trucks aren't the problem. they were quiting their jobs because they were afraid to go to work. hence, terrrorism. banning implements is irrelevant.

That was my point. Specific tactics were not the important issue. It was the attitude, the guiding ideology, that Bowman, et al followed. No bans in the world could have prevented the guerilla warfare (or terrorism, semantics) practiced by Bowman, et al. They could be hunted down, but they could not be stopped before they acted. Prevention wasn't possible. Only reaction.

That's why I think it's rather pointless to declare war on a vague concept. It would be more efficient to declare war on the specific group that attacked us. This is not the path we've taken.


is it just me, or are you proposing something you claim is doomed to bloody and costly failure?

Sorry, I occassionally forget not everyone is aquainted with the Wahabbis. al Queda and other related terrorist groups (such as the Muslim Brotherhood) are all a branch of the Wahabbi movement. They are an ultrafundimentalist group that attempt to justify their behavior with religion and philosophy. Wahabbism is not an ethnic group or religion, per se. It can be considered a religious-political sect, I suppose. Not all Wahabbis are Arab, and not all Arabs are Wahabbi. All Wahabbis are Muslim, but not all Muslims are Wahabbi.

Let me make another analogy. The KKK. They wrapped themselves as a 'religious group'. They also used terrorism and bombings to try to further their goals. For a period of time, they also had an amount of state support. Enough to escape punishment for many of their crimes. They did not represent Christianity, nor did they represent every white person. All KKK members were white and supposedly Christian, but not all white and Christian people were members of the KKK.

Eventually, they were broken. Pockets still exist and occassionally cause trouble, but they are no longer killing nor bombing with impunity. Do you think the FBI could have broken the back of the KKK if they had declared war against Christianity or all white persons living in the South? Uh, doubtful.
 
i think most of us here are familiar with them. it sounded like, when you said "specific religion", you meant wahhabis as opposed to islam in general (with all the flavors)

I think the WoT should be about hunting down the Wahabbi sect and destroying them.

the political realities (high muslim populations in GB, france, germany, netherlands, etc) mean it is not going to be possible to hunt down and exterminate the wahhabis. we wouldn't even be able to declare war on them domestically, and there's no chance we'd get help from our "allies".

that's just not going to happen.


which is why i think our actual strategy is two-fold:
1) we're taking a conventional war to them (afghan/iraq) where the nutjobs are drawn like flies into those countries for the opportunity to fight us. it's a bad move on their part and the only chance of success they have is due to a sympathetic press. this is really just buying us time for propaganda

2) we're generally raising the perceived difficulty in successful terrorism (e.g. advertising all the gov spying systems to catch you) and reassuring people that even if they do something horrible, we're not going to change our behavior.

i don't think that's a bad strategy, given the alternatives.

now, i'm not saying this strategy will be 100% effective. for instance, just look at the economic damage the DC sniper caused just by randomly popping a couple people. our strategy relies on people thinking they can't get away with it. (when in fact, they probably can) but it's better than nothing, eh?
 
UC:
A great read. A great read. Excellent character development, and IMO that's a really big part of what makes for a good story. Also, the author presents the factual/historical stuff in a way that causes the reader to feel interested. I've read the book once a year for the past five or so and I look forward to more.

Quit worrying about little things like food and stuff, John....just starve and drink and write! Think of the children!
 
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