Unreal expectations?

[Whiskeyhotel2020]

Went shooting with a buddy the other day. I brought my current favorite rifle with. For those that haven't read any of my other posts I have been working on setting up a 16.5 inch barreled Remington 700 sps in .308. Its zeroed 1.5 inch high at 100 yards. I have been around firearms my whole life. I've shot an m16 (in semi auto identical as the ar15) out to 500 meters and later on an m4. With open sights and in unsupported positions. So with the way my Margaret is set up 300 yards is no big deal right?

Where we shoot is a gravel pit. My range finder isn't working right but from the entrance to the far dirt/rock pile is about 230ish yards. I'll confirm when I get a new rangefinder. I set up a SME silhouette ( 11.5 X 22inch) paper target with a black silhouette on it. Now, my expectation is all rounds in the X ring because 230ish is not that hard of a shot. My buddy has a practical knowledge of firearms and when I got 7 out of eight rounds in the black the one miss was a called bad shot. He commented on the great shooting. I was disappointed with my performance. Because like I said all those rounds should not only be in the black but all clustered not splattered around it.

Now should I be pleased with hitting the target all rounds did hit around where intended just not precisely as I wanted (that's on me I know) but hits at beyond 200 yards is that considered to be great? Or are my expectations of my self and my rifle askew?

At any rate this has been stuck in my craw for the last couple days. For me it gave me a need to actually settle in and shoot better. Plans are already being made for more range time. Thanks for reading.

 

[Nuke8401]

I think calling a miss and knowing where it went is the next best thing to hitting the intended target. Are you shooting iron sights off-hand? You didn't say what load you are shooting, what is you hold at 300 yards? Just wondering.

 

[Jim Watson]

What IS Margaret set up for?
What sights, what position, what 100 yard group, etc?

 

[jmorris]

Now should I be pleased with hitting the target all rounds did hit around where intended just not precisely as I wanted (that's on me I know) but hits at beyond 200 yards is that considered to be great? Or are my expectations of my self and my rifle askew?

Need more information, 4 paragraphs and I only see qualitative words, I don’t know the actual size of the group or even your expectations, in any unit of measure.

If I said, I fired a 10 shot group at 50 yards and didn’t hit the bullseye a single time. One might infer that the group was bad.



But those words don’t give the reader insight on their location or combined size on target the same as if I said, ‘10 shots at 50 yards into less than an inch. Despite being 6.5” high and 1.5 right from the center of the target, it does show us the difference between precision and accuracy.



Have a photo of the target and rifle? Maybe even the equipment your using otherwise, if anything or was it shot with open sights from a standing position?

 

[Varminterror]

So, starting with my own personal expectations for my ammo and rifles:

1) It has been a long, long time since I have bought or built (and longer since I have KEPT) any centerfire rifle which wouldn’t I could not convince to shoot sub-MOA. I typically expect to deliver around 3/4-1moa, or smaller, for 3-5 shot groups at 100yrds. Naturally, better for custom barrels and rifles, and worse for sub-optimal rifles and cartridges like lever actions, but for a centerfire bottleneck cartridge rifle, a factory rifle, I’m disappointed at 1moa, and satisfied at 3/4.

2) Being well practiced, I know I don’t shoot my smallest dispersions at 200yrds, but I also know I don’t slip much in group dispersion from 100 to 200 yards, or really even 300.

1 + 2 = 3) If I’m shooting 3/4” groups at 100, I expect to be shooting 1.5-1.75”, hopefully not as large as 2” groups, 1moa, by 200yrds. Under 2.5” by 250, and under 3” by 300, and not terribly satisfied if I leak anything out to 4” at 300 if the rifle reliably shoots 3/4” at 100… but recognizing, the respective target picture will have changed significantly between 100 and 300yrds, so I’m not necessarily surprised if 3/4-1moa at 100 slips to 1.3moa at 300.

So at 230yrds, I’d personally be expecting no worse than 2-2.5” from any of my rifles, and hopefully able to expect slightly under 2”. Some of my rifles, I’d expect 1.25-1.5”, given friendly wind conditions.

Applying my personal standards, then, to an SME-TRG-SIL target, measuring the scale with Sun-MOA app, based on 11.5” paper width, I would be very disappointed if I slipped any shots outside of the 9 ring, and would want all of my shots at 230yrds to be inside the width of the 9 ring NUMBERS, which measure out at ~2.75” on the app. The 10 ring appears to be ~1 7/8”, which would be sporty for a 3/4moa rifle at 230yrds, and the X ring appears to only be 1”, which would be fantastic, and very difficult to deliver with ANY reliability by any factory rifle at 230yrds (sub-1/2moa to do so, legitimately, not just internet “it’s a 1/2moa rifle, all day long when I do my part” talk).

Also as an example: Precision Rifle Series stage design guidance for Match Directors is typically to use 2-4moa targets for POSITIONAL shooting at midrange, meaning the targets we engage from kneeling or standing, supporting the rifle only at the midpoint on a wall of railroad ties, a cattle gate, a 55 gallon drum, or a tank trap, etc. and firing out to ~500-700yrds would be 2-4moa in size. Most matches lean towards the smaller side these days, since the level of performance among top shooters really is so high. So on an 11.5” page, that target black at ~9.5” wide would be a POSITIONAL target and likely placed at 300-450yrds. Guidance for a prone or modified prone stage would suggest that target should be placed no closer than 450yrds, and would typically be found out at 600-650yrds.

 

[Turkeytider]

Need more information, 4 paragraphs and I only see qualitative words, I don’t know the actual size of the group or even your expectations, in any unit of measure.

If I said, I fired a 10 shot group at 50 yards and didn’t hit the bullseye a single time. One might infer that the group was bad.

View attachment 1152173

But those words don’t give the reader insight on their location or combined size on target the same as if I said, ‘10 shots at 50 yards into less than an inch. Despite being 6.5” high and 1.5 right from the center of the target, it does show us the difference between precision and accuracy.

View attachment 1152171

Have a photo of the target and rifle? Maybe even the equipment your using otherwise, if anything or was it shot with open sights from a standing position?

Sort of highlights the difference between " accuracy " and " precision ".

 

[Varminterror]

Dude described the target and the relative group. It’s an 11.5x22 page with a silhouette ~9.5” wide, and everything was in the black except one at 230yrds. So it’s roughly a 4moa target at the distance fired. The 100yrd groups from the rifle were shared in his other post, looking like >1moa, but <2moa. Gauging from that, he should have held everything - if properly compensating for wind and range - within the bounds of the 8 ring, about HALF of the width of the black silhouette. I’d personally venture that the rifle and shooter can do better than just holding onto wide 8’s, but if we’re sliding outside of the 8 ring, let alone sliding off of the silhouette, then we have work to do. Walk before we run.

Ammo being used WOULD be interesting to know. Something is wonky if we’re getting ~1.5moa at 100 and ~2.5-4moa at a measly 230.

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend took several successful hunters with name brand equipment to his acreage with target stands and berms at surveyed distances, the metallic silhouette ranges. They were pretty well out of gas at 300 m, if not before; and that from a steady rest at a static target and no buck fever.

 

[.38 Special]

There is so much nonsense on the internet regarding accuracy that sometimes even experienced shooters can lose touch with reality. I still am sometimes amazed how far away 300 yards actually is.

I suspect some of my fellow shooters are the same - especially the more casual ones. It's not at all unusual for me to see people set up at 200 or 300 yard targets and either miss them completely or pepper them so randomly that their "groups" are essentially meaningless. Most of those people seem pretty disappointed, and I suspect that they were misled by the internet.

The reality is that 230 yards is a pretty fair chop for most people, and anyone who can print consistent 5" rested groups at that distance is ahead of the "average" couple-of-days-a-year-at-the-range guy. The folks shooting significantly better than that are, quite frankly, serious riflemen and should be held out as an example of what is possible, rather than what is to be expected right out of the box.

 

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper once did a humor piece (!) about "Duck Yards". He supposedly studied different types of shooting and found different definitions of a yard - all made up, but some of it strikes home. A duck yard came out right at 24". A target shooter's yard averaged 35 7/8" due to the unfortunate habit of people showing up at ranges with measuring tools. (Ours was only 35" due to berm slump.) A plinker's yard was 11" probably due to them seeing feet and calling them yards. I don't recall the number, but a big game hunter's yard was more than a duck yard but well short of a surveyor's yard.

 

[JohnKSa]

I wouldn't get too excited about it until you shoot the rifle with several different loadings. I remember a range trip from some years ago where I took a single rifle to the range with three different loads. One shot into about an inch. One shot into about 3". One barely kept all the shots on a paper plate. All from the same rifle at the same distance shot from a bench.

 

[gotboostvr]

I wouldn't get too excited about it until you shoot the rifle with several different loadings. I remember a range trip from some years ago where I took a single rifle to the range with three different loads. One shot into about an inch. One shot into about 3". One barely kept all the shots on a paper plate. All from the same rifle at the same distance shot from a bench.

Oh yeah, I had some Privi "match" components that turned my ¾moa rifle into a 5moa gun. Nothing I did with those bullets could tighten up the group.

A box of Federal Gold Medal Match, proved the rifle (and myself) could still hold under 1moa. My handloads with Serria bullets demonstrated it wasn't my reloading technique either as I can get them under 1moa too out of that rifle.

 

[jmorris]

I’m disappointed at 1moa, and satisfied at 3/4.

I’d be just fine with 1 MOA offhand with standard iron sights. We don’t even know how he was shooting.

Need more information for an even close evaluation.

 

[Varminterror]

I appreciate the sentiment @Jim Watson and @.38 Special are trying to convey - yes, it’s true the average gun owner, and I’ll even extend to say the vast majority of gun owners, cannot shoot worth piss. This is largely derived from 2 factors: 1) they aren’t practiced because they don’t actually ever shoot - can’t be very good at something you’ve never actually done, 2) they don’t know how to shoot well because they don’t actually ever learn (or get taught) how to shoot. “Don’t know” and “don’t try” are pretty damning attributes.

But in fairness, when I weigh myself every morning, I don’t feel better about being 15lbs over my former common weight, just because someone might point out that 70% of Americans are overweight. I know I won’t ever see my old wrestling/fighting weights on the scale, now 35lbs away instead of just 15-20 from my walking weight, just like I know my picture won’t have any “world champion marksman” title beside it, but I don’t want the hollow comfort of “well, you suck, but everybody else sucks too, so it’s ok.”

 

[nastynatesfish]

I’d try some better ammo. The 168gr federal gold metal generally shoots well in everything the next best option would be to reload. 308 is a easy round to tune. And that 16.5” should shoot everything 155-175gr well. I’d look at ammo. Try some good stuff. But seriously look at reloading.

 

[Okie_Poke]

@Whiskeyhotel2020, I haven't been following your other threads, but curiosity got the best of me here. I was with a couple of other folks in not having enough information about the sight being used or the position being shot from to really be able to weigh in. But, I clicked on your profile and found this thread in which I think you were talking about this rifle.

For everyone else's benefit here: The rifle has a scope and bipod. Although I'm not the best at reading groups, and it's hard to know which shots to count and which not to from someone else's sighting-in target because you don't know if/when they moved the crosshairs, based on his next to last post it looks like he was shooting 3-4 shot groups that measured between 1 and 2 inches, roughly, at 100 yards in his outing before this one.

Back to the OP: I am going to assume you were shooting off the bipod. If you were shooting offhand, then disregard what I'm about to say: Something is off. Like others, I think the most likely culprit is ammo selection. Some guns just don't like certain bullets. I have a Remington 700 in 30-06 that was very picky about its bullets and even had one powder in particular that it hated. Shoots just fine with ammo it likes. I would buy a couple of different types of ammo and see if that helped. And if I could find it, I would make that 168 Federal Gold Medal Match load one of them because it has a reputation for shooting in every 308.

In addition, I recommend you dry fire practice. It doesn't cost anything and it helps you ensure you're not flinching. If you have a flinch, dry fire is about the best way to work through it. Dry fire has definitely helped me shoot better.

Also, if you aren't using a rear bag or something to support the butt of your rifle when shooting groups, I recommend you get a simple bag or sock with sand or something. It does make a difference.

In terms of expectations, @Varminterror has set out some pretty good ones, though I think his standards are pretty high. I don't rag on a factory rifle too much if it's consistently shooting under 1.25 MOA 5-shot groups. My newest factory rifles shoot in the 3/4 to 1 range he mentioned, but I have a few older rifles that don't do that all the time, at least without pretty careful handloading. My 25ish year-old Remington 700 requires careful handloading.

 

[gotboostvr]

@Whiskeyhotel2020, I haven't been following your other threads, but curiosity got the best of me here. I was with a couple of other folks in not having enough information about the sight being used or the position being shot from to really be able to weigh in. But, I clicked on your profile and found this thread in which I think you were talking about this rifle.

For everyone else's benefit here: The rifle has a scope and bipod. Although I'm not the best at reading groups, and it's hard to know which shots to count and which not to from someone else's sighting-in target because you don't know if/when they moved the crosshairs, based on his next to last post it looks like he was shooting 3-4 shot groups that measured between 1 and 2 inches, roughly, at 100 yards in his outing before this one.

Back to the OP: I am going to assume you were shooting off the bipod. If you were shooting offhand, then disregard what I'm about to say: Something is off. Like others, I think the most likely culprit is ammo selection. Some guns just don't like certain bullets. I have a Remington 700 in 30-06 that was very picky about its bullets and even had one powder in particular that it hated. Shoots just fine with ammo it likes. I would buy a couple of different types of ammo and see if that helped. And if I could find it, I would make that 168 Federal Gold Medal Match load one of them because it has a reputation for shooting in every 308.

In addition, I recommend you dry fire practice. It doesn't cost anything and it helps you ensure you're not flinching. If you have a flinch, dry fire is about the best way to work through it. Dry fire has definitely helped me shoot better.

Also, if you aren't using a rear bag or something to support the butt of your rifle when shooting groups, I recommend you get a simple bag or sock with sand or something. It does make a difference.

In terms of expectations, @Varminterror has set out some pretty good ones, though I think his standards are pretty high. I don't rag on a factory rifle too much if it's consistently shooting under 1.25 MOA 5-shot groups. My newest factory rifles shoot in the 3/4 to 1 range he mentioned, but I have a few older rifles that don't do that all the time, at least without pretty careful handloading. My 25ish year-old Remington 700 requires careful handloading.

FGMM and a rear bag are easy mode for shooting decent groups.

My handloads are using 186gr SMK 's (or 165gr SGK's) over RL15 or IMR3031 using FGMM neck sized brass and they shoot as good or better, and to the same POA/POI.

 

[nastynatesfish]

When I’m doing load developememt I use a sled. So I can take me out as much as possible. I use verticals and horizontal lines on a target to line my crosshairs up with to give me a fixed point to aim at without having to worry about checking the scope is level each shot. It helps to consistently have the same point of aim for shots. I was aiming at the heavy yellow lines on the top right corner of this target. That may help you some to group also.

 

[Turkeytider]

There is so much nonsense on the internet regarding accuracy that sometimes even experienced shooters can lose touch with reality. I still am sometimes amazed how far away 300 yards actually is.

I suspect some of my fellow shooters are the same - especially the more casual ones. It's not at all unusual for me to see people set up at 200 or 300 yard targets and either miss them completely or pepper them so randomly that their "groups" are essentially meaningless. Most of those people seem pretty disappointed, and I suspect that they were misled by the internet.

The reality is that 230 yards is a pretty fair chop for most people, and anyone who can print consistent 5" rested groups at that distance is ahead of the "average" couple-of-days-a-year-at-the-range guy. The folks shooting significantly better than that are, quite frankly, serious riflemen and should be held out as an example of what is possible, rather than what is to be expected right out of the box.

One of, if not THE, best and most real world posts I`ve seen on ANY gun/shooting related sites. I always wonder about all these, " 5 shot groups within 2" at 500 yards ALL...DAY...LONG with my....". I would hazard a guess that video of such accomplishments is hard to come by.

 

[.38 Special]

One of, if not THE, best and most real world posts I`ve seen on ANY gun/shooting related sites. I always wonder about all these, " 5 shot groups within 2" at 500 yards ALL...DAY...LONG with my....". I would hazard a guess that video of such accomplishments is hard to come by.

When I'm feeling generous, I assume that folks sometimes conflate what they did once with what they can do on demand.

The rest of the time, of course, I assume that people are simply lying through their teeth.

 

[Okie_Poke]

When I'm feeling generous, I assume that folks sometimes conflate what they did once with what they can do on demand.

The rest of the time, of course, I assume that people are simply lying through their teeth.

This is fair. Most people (myself included) don’t shoot groups beyond 100 yards very often either. I’ve started trying to do load work up at 200 and 300 yards recently, but it’s hard to break from the 100-yard rut. I like seeing smaller groups, and that’s easier to do at 100 yards. But it doesn’t tell you as much.

 

[Varminterror]

Feeling a lot like some liberal socialism in here - don’t bother measuring yourself by anyone but the worst of shooters… The OP spent money customizing a rifle, not because he wanted to shoot a little better than a gun owner which doesn’t actually shoot…

When I said above - my personal standards - I would not be satisfied leaking shots outside of 4” at 300 yards is based upon my actual shooting experience doing so, to the point that I use 3” and 4” circles and 4.5” wide X-steel brand gnome shaped targets at my 285 and 325 POSITIONAL practice range. Not shooting these prone or benched, but rather shooting these from portable barricades and tank traps. 25-40% farther and shooting POSITIONALLY, standing or kneeling from a mid-rifle support - and ~1-1.5moa is my standard for target size at that distance.

I’m not terribly convinced what I am doing is special - my 9yr old reliably hits these targets, and has since he was 7, and with other sports in his life, he only shoots about once per month during most of the year, and misses a few months each year - definitely less than 12 trips per year. I suppose it’s fair that some adult men are ok living by a standard that they can’t outshoot a 9yr old boy, but I won’t pretend his skill is unattainable for any able bodied man or woman which wants it for themselves. I missed 3 out of 15 shots at a mile today in 14mph wind on a 1.9moa target with a rifle I had only fired 12 rnds one time before… should I really be ok with shooting 5” at 230? Screw that. Do better.

A “2” at 500yrds all day long” straw man is a pretty damned big gap from 4” at 300. No sense in being bitter because someone who wants to do better at something actually does better than someone who doesn’t care enough to be good at it.

 

[Whiskeyhotel2020]

I’m not terribly convinced what I am doing is special - my 9yr old reliably hits these targets, and has since he was 7, and with other sports in his life, he only shoots about once per month during most of the year, and misses a few months each year - definitely less than 12 trips per year. I suppose it’s fair that some adult men are ok living by a standard that they can’t outshoot a 9yr old boy, but I won’t pretend his skill is unattainable for any able bodied man or woman which wants it for themselves. I missed 3 out of 15 shots at a mile today in 14mph wind on a 1.9moa target with a rifle I had only fired 12 rnds one time before… should I really be ok with shooting 5” at 230? Screw that. Do better.

This was what I was looking for thank you.

@Okie_Poke thank you for the assist in explaining what I was trying to get at. Ill remember to include more information next time.
@.38 Special I appreciate your post about that it's an accomplishment for the average shooter to make hits at 200 yards. I think think that 200 yards is close for a .308 with a scope and bipod. This would be an entirely different post had I been shooting off hand with open sights and keeping 1 moa groups. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't falling into the unrealistic thinking that you pointed out. I want to be the example that other shooters look to become.

I took notes on the conditions and time of day and can't seem to find "Margaret's book" at the moment however the information my post was missing.

Rifle a factory Remington 700 sps with 16.5 inch heavy barrel. Dropped into a American Built Arms Mod X gen2 chassis system. The pistol grip is from the same company and is too small and thin for my hand. I replaced the thread protector with a JT-350 from Just the Tip Tactical. The bipod is one I picked up from Walmart the nearly 20 years ago and is made by champion. It has the ability to tilt (which i have to tighten constantly). The rifle is topped with a Leopold vx-1 4-12X40mm 1 inch scope with a duplex reticle set in a waren one piece Vapor cantilever mount. The ammo fired on the sight in day was Federal Gold Metal Match with exception of six round of 150 gr Nosler ballistic tips loaded by Nosler (can't remember what the box said pertaining to the type/line). The wind was of no value blowing in line with the rifle. I was shooting at the target pictured. Distance was measured/guessed by using a laser range finder that I can only see the top and bottom portions of the digital read out.

The second trip I shot 2 strings of 4 rounds each. The first 4 shots of the first string and the first 2 of the second string were from a somewhat kneeling position over the top of a big rock rifle supported by the bipod and then prone with the bipod for the last 2 shots. Those were 168 gr Nosler CC. The only consistency was the fact I was the one behind the rifle. It was a let's see where I'm at trip.

I found I'm a long way from where I want to be. I just wasn't sure I had unrealistic goals because of my buddies reaction and my thoughts about his reaction.

I have a deeper appreciation for rifle shooting. When I was younger I thought rifles were boring and slow. Handguns, now that is exciting and cool.

 

[Okie_Poke]

The second trip I shot 2 strings of 4 rounds each. The first 4 shots of the first string and the first 2 of the second string were from a somewhat kneeling position over the top of a big rock rifle supported by the bipod and then prone with the bipod for the last 2 shots. Those were 168 gr Nosler CC. The only consistency was the fact I was the one behind the rifle. It was a let's see where I'm at trip.

I’m going to make a couple of unsolicited suggestions. The first is to find one type of ammo your rifle likes, and stick with that. Switching between brands of factory ammo during the same string of fire is going to give you different points of impact, especially at 200 yards and further. Being zeroed for one will probably not be zeroed for the other. It might sometimes be close, particularly at close range, but they are going to diverge as you go out. Sometimes the difference can be pretty drastic.

The second is to differentiate between shooting groups and more practical positional shooting. When you are picking your ammo, getting your zero, or just working on trigger-pulling technique, you want to shoot from as solid and consistent of a position as possible to eliminate as many variables as possible. Prone or from a bench, with both front and rear support. Once you’ve done that and you know what you, your rifle, and your load are capable of, get off the bench and shoot practical field positions (like off your rock, or from kneeling, off sticks, offhand, whatever). It’s often humbling. Put a 6 or 8 inch target out there (or whatever size your goal is, really). Hits count, misses don’t. The range at which you can put all of your shots on that target is your practical range limit for that position.

 

[MarshallDodge]

There has been a lot of good suggestions in this thread and I agree with eliminating variables-

1- Is it you? Put the gun on a bench and get a good rest to test.

2- Is it ammo? Lots of variables here but FGMM usually shoots well in a Remington.

3- The gun? You changed the chassis and the muzzle device. Could either of those be having an effect on the accuracy? Eliminate them by checking torque or removing.