gunsmith
member
I didn't read the whole thread
Tell her she isn't killing a human, she is killing a creep that resembles a human
Tell her she isn't killing a human, she is killing a creep that resembles a human
Unwilling to pull the trigger.
- Thread starter wideym
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jaholder1971
Member
My late father was a detective through part of his career at Topeka PD. In the 80's he investigates one serial rapist who had on 2 separate occasions had women draw down on him and simply couldn't pull the trigger. They were both beaten to a pulp, raped, sexually assaulted with the gun (trying to stay High Road, come to your own conclusions) and robbed. One of these women was 80 years old and spent weeks in the hospital.
Had either one pulled the trigger there likely would have been literally scores of rapes that would never have occurred.
Dad turned 16 cases over to the DA on this one guy for prosecution, had another 20 ready to go when the DA told him to stop, they had enough on him to put him away for life as it was. Considering only 10 percent of rapes are reported do the math for yourself.
Had either one pulled the trigger there likely would have been literally scores of rapes that would never have occurred.
Dad turned 16 cases over to the DA on this one guy for prosecution, had another 20 ready to go when the DA told him to stop, they had enough on him to put him away for life as it was. Considering only 10 percent of rapes are reported do the math for yourself.
To Borrow an analogical idea...
Whether you arrive at sheep-dom through nature or nurture, you are nonetheless there... a sheep... and sheep, even when given canine dental implants and sharp claws on their hooves, still tend to bleet weakly and die easily in the jaws of society's wolves. You have to pull yourself up out from the herd and become a sheep dog who is not afraid to use the teeth and claws that NATURALLY come with such a state of existence. I feel horrible for the girl. However, she, though a victim of Liberal brainwashing and an apparently weak and ignorant father figure, did make the final decision to leave her survival up to the wolf at the door. Not wise.
Whether you arrive at sheep-dom through nature or nurture, you are nonetheless there... a sheep... and sheep, even when given canine dental implants and sharp claws on their hooves, still tend to bleet weakly and die easily in the jaws of society's wolves. You have to pull yourself up out from the herd and become a sheep dog who is not afraid to use the teeth and claws that NATURALLY come with such a state of existence. I feel horrible for the girl. However, she, though a victim of Liberal brainwashing and an apparently weak and ignorant father figure, did make the final decision to leave her survival up to the wolf at the door. Not wise.
bogie
Member
Most folks don't KNOW about a final decision to decide for oneself. They've never been taught that they may have responsibility for their own welfare, and they've never been taught that lethal force is sometimes okay.
They're ignorant.
They're NOT stupid. They just haven't been taught.
Yet.
You can't blame a dog for taking a dump in the middle of the living room if it has not been conditioned to know that it is not the right thing to do. I have nothing but contempt for folks who angrily beat puppies, as opposed to gentle, yet firm, training. This is the same sort of situation.
They're ignorant.
They're NOT stupid. They just haven't been taught.
Yet.
You can't blame a dog for taking a dump in the middle of the living room if it has not been conditioned to know that it is not the right thing to do. I have nothing but contempt for folks who angrily beat puppies, as opposed to gentle, yet firm, training. This is the same sort of situation.
rainbowbob
Member
Arfin: That was a well-developed argument with a spot-on conclusion.
Elza
Member
People are not only trained but forced to be a victim. In the schools that our son attended a victim that fought back received the same punishment as the aggressor. (If the aggressor was one of their precious football players the victim would receive worse punishment!) It is no small wonder that this carries over to their adult lives. They are being forced to be victims from the time they start school.
FourTeeFive
Member
Oddly enough my sister has been a victim of a violent crime, and she has the same opinion as this woman. I don't get it. We grew up together, went to similar schools, etc. and yet we have GREATLY different viewpoints on this subject.
Northalius
Member
wideym, could you meet up with her again and ask her to go to the range with you?
After training her with a totally empty gun (check 3-4 times, and teach her to check 3-4 times) and teaching her the four basic gun-safety rules... then show her how to shoot it with real bullets afterward.
Maybe something will spark inside of her after she has actually shot the gun, she'll be more comfortable with doing it in a real life and death situation.
Sure, I can be wrong, and she can still give up after this, but we've got to try somehow, and everyone is different to an extent.
You've got to wake her up, because she's literally in some kind of dream world of some sort; someone has brainwashed her into thinking this way.
You'd have to wonder about some of these peaceniks out there; if you ask them "Would you kill death, if death were killable?"
Would they say they don't want to kill, and let death still reign over themselves and everyone else?
That'd be crazy, right?
Well, it's similar to letting a brutal rapist / murderer live, as well! As harsh as it might sound, you've got to let them know: If you willingly sit there and do nothing, while letting a rapist / murderer have their way when you had the power to stop them, then you're only helping him/her inflict that same pain upon others in the future. You've got to suck it up and take these bastards out; not only will you do a rightful service to yourself, but to the whole people! Now that you've killed a murderer or rapist... you've now saved countless number of lives from torment and misery!
Look at killing a criminal the same way you kill a cancer.
Tell her this!
After training her with a totally empty gun (check 3-4 times, and teach her to check 3-4 times) and teaching her the four basic gun-safety rules... then show her how to shoot it with real bullets afterward.
Maybe something will spark inside of her after she has actually shot the gun, she'll be more comfortable with doing it in a real life and death situation.
Sure, I can be wrong, and she can still give up after this, but we've got to try somehow, and everyone is different to an extent.
You've got to wake her up, because she's literally in some kind of dream world of some sort; someone has brainwashed her into thinking this way.
You'd have to wonder about some of these peaceniks out there; if you ask them "Would you kill death, if death were killable?"
Would they say they don't want to kill, and let death still reign over themselves and everyone else?
That'd be crazy, right?
Well, it's similar to letting a brutal rapist / murderer live, as well! As harsh as it might sound, you've got to let them know: If you willingly sit there and do nothing, while letting a rapist / murderer have their way when you had the power to stop them, then you're only helping him/her inflict that same pain upon others in the future. You've got to suck it up and take these bastards out; not only will you do a rightful service to yourself, but to the whole people! Now that you've killed a murderer or rapist... you've now saved countless number of lives from torment and misery!
Look at killing a criminal the same way you kill a cancer.
Tell her this!
CountGlockula
Member
This is a grim reminder for us to educate the women in our lives to protect themselves.
Northalius
Member
Yes count, and to teach our children when young how to handle a firearm safely, and know when their life is in total danger, like a person kidsnaps them, they can use the gun for protection of their life.
We must educate EVERYone we know in how they can rightfully defend themselves against criminals, private or government, foreign or domestic.
Very sad story and stories.
Some people just don't have it in them.
I wonder how many women are attacked, raped, and beaten to a pulp. They would rather take that than shoot another human.
I think most women will only kill when their children are in danger or they have been so emotionally abused that they will turn to that last course of action.
Some people just don't have it in them.
I wonder how many women are attacked, raped, and beaten to a pulp. They would rather take that than shoot another human.
I think most women will only kill when their children are in danger or they have been so emotionally abused that they will turn to that last course of action.
Hokkmike
Member
Not that I agree, but in the absence of such a predisposition, what would be the natural inclination of man faced with such a threat?
James T Thomas
Member
vortex of confusion
Her action only serves as a glareing example of the Liberal mentality.
She had taken the "High Moral Ground" in her mind, and perhaps had the firearm only as a concession to her boyfriend.
There are so many examples of this mindset. Remember the man in the mall in WA state who had the bezerk AK shooter in his sights and just couldn't bring himself to shoot the "unfortunate miscreant?"
Once they have reached the pinnacle of decision not to harm a living soul, then nothing can dissuade them from such a high and mighty stance.
In their viewpoint, their position trumps what ever comes along in their lives.
Be it the life of their loved ones, themselves or even helpless others.
They stand on the moral ground looking down at us mortals and feel we should admire or adore them for their high and noble example.
What ever logical argument you bring before them they will cling fast to their exalted position and know in their reasoning that they must be correct; after all, it is the good thing. Doesn't that beat all?
Yes, it is some type of mental disorder. Obcession at least.
But those who hold it will never come to recognize it in themselves or others.
Tip your hat to them and try not to get too disgusted.
Her action only serves as a glareing example of the Liberal mentality.
She had taken the "High Moral Ground" in her mind, and perhaps had the firearm only as a concession to her boyfriend.
There are so many examples of this mindset. Remember the man in the mall in WA state who had the bezerk AK shooter in his sights and just couldn't bring himself to shoot the "unfortunate miscreant?"
Once they have reached the pinnacle of decision not to harm a living soul, then nothing can dissuade them from such a high and mighty stance.
In their viewpoint, their position trumps what ever comes along in their lives.
Be it the life of their loved ones, themselves or even helpless others.
They stand on the moral ground looking down at us mortals and feel we should admire or adore them for their high and noble example.
What ever logical argument you bring before them they will cling fast to their exalted position and know in their reasoning that they must be correct; after all, it is the good thing. Doesn't that beat all?
Yes, it is some type of mental disorder. Obcession at least.
But those who hold it will never come to recognize it in themselves or others.
Tip your hat to them and try not to get too disgusted.
Mr. Designer
Member
The Bible says not to murder. Killing in self defense is not murder.Ala Dan said:
highorder
Member
He would likely grab a huge rock and crush the agressor. Anyone disagree?
rainbowbob
Member
James T: You make several unsubstantiated assumptions in your post - mostly of the "blame the victim" flavor. And that sort of non-THR commentary leaves a bad taste. You were not at either of the incidents you so self-righteously refer to, and therefore I would assert you cannot possibly know what was going on in the minds of those that were.
Last weekend, I took a course from a firearms trainer who personally knows "the man in the mall in WA state" (a close frind of his son). I asked him if he had discussed with the young man what had happened in that incident that caused him to holster his gun without shooting. One version was that he was concerned that the police were going to mistake him for the shooter if he had a weapon in his hand, so he holstered his gun just as the shooter came around a corner and shot him. he also said he has heard different versions which is not unusual in incidents of this kind.
We should all take care this doesn't describe our attitude.
Here is a link where the OP can purchase a book for his unfortunate friend, "Effective Defense" written especially for women.
http://www.firearmsacademy.com/book.htm
bogie
Member
Guys, you have to have an AGREEABLE student to be able to teach them. You can lecture, and it'll get ignored.
This is a rough bit - the person involved literally has to disregard DECADES of social conditioning. That's darn near as difficult as quitting smoking. So give 'em a bit of a break, and just let 'em know that you're there for 'em. Gentle and subtle works.
This is a rough bit - the person involved literally has to disregard DECADES of social conditioning. That's darn near as difficult as quitting smoking. So give 'em a bit of a break, and just let 'em know that you're there for 'em. Gentle and subtle works.
I'll second that!
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/03/she-was-doing-everything-she-was.html
Lawdog says it better than I can, RE: social conditioning........ good stuff!
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/03/she-was-doing-everything-she-was.html
Lawdog says it better than I can, RE: social conditioning........ good stuff!
Pilgrim
Member
She had a gun, but that's not the same as being armed.
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
Hooray. A voice of reason.
I can't believe the "blame the victim" game going on in this thread.
Unless you have actually stared down someone and shot them yourself, you do not know what you will be able to do. For all we know, the lady in question thought, before that awful moment, that SHE could have done what needed doing, but found that she could not. None of us have the right to criticize what she could or could not bring herself to do. All we can do is try to teach our significant others (spouse, children, elderly parents, friends) to be prepared if that time comes. And we can try, ourselves, to be prepared. But we cannot, simply cannot, predict with utter certainty that we'll be able to pull that trigger and kill. If you think you can, you may find that you've deluded yourself.
Springmom
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Wideym,
I wasn't there so i don't know. If the guy was threatening one of my babies I would use whatever tools in my possession to stop him. That situation I have been in and know for a fact. I also remember the problems I had afterward (The incident was in D.C.) even though the attacker wasn't permanently harmed. While if one of my babies were threatened again I would do the same if I were being threatened... I just don't know.
Selena
I wasn't there so i don't know. If the guy was threatening one of my babies I would use whatever tools in my possession to stop him. That situation I have been in and know for a fact. I also remember the problems I had afterward (The incident was in D.C.) even though the attacker wasn't permanently harmed. While if one of my babies were threatened again I would do the same if I were being threatened... I just don't know.
Selena
jakemccoy
Member
There are a lot of good points.
Also, it could be as simple as never going to range. Think about the very first shot you ever took with a handgun - the hesitation, the nervousness. She didn't even cross that line before this encounter. It sounds like she still hasn't. Most people are not built for trial by fire.
Also, it could be as simple as never going to range. Think about the very first shot you ever took with a handgun - the hesitation, the nervousness. She didn't even cross that line before this encounter. It sounds like she still hasn't. Most people are not built for trial by fire.
James T Thomas
Member
Huh?
Upon reviewing my post, I cannot see just how I have "blamed the victim" in any stretch of the imagination.
"RBob," I do not at all presume that her attacker knew beforehand that she would not pull the trigger on her, and therefor decided she was the one he would target. I do not think either that she some how advertised for a rapist; making publicly known that she would not defend herself.
You are absolutely correct Bob, that I was not there at the incident.
-Neither were you.
People often make statements as to what was going on in their mind that turn out to be deceptive or downright lies, or the truth. Who knows?
Just as you said.
May I post here with my observations Bob? Just as you do? I'll admit I could and may be wrong, but for the sake of dialogue, it is there.
And Bob, just how do you know that I am self righteous, since as you state
you cannot possibly know what is going on in other's minds. Isn't that so?
You said it yourself; one version -of the mall shooting. There are other versions available right here on THR. Most of them are not contrdictory either.
The ones I read stated he had the shooter in his sights. The police did not arrive for considerable time. The man who was armed had been for a time behind cover.
I'm not gleeful that this woman was brutalized. It was a heinous crime.
She didn't "deserve" it.
She should have shot her attacker however.
For those who have had decades of social conditioning and autonomically presume that to be a criticism; please do not "read into" what is stated, but rather give me the benefit of the doubt that I can express my thoughts in writing rather than insinuation.
I thought she should have shot him.
What do you speculate as to why she didn't ; given her response as that she
couldn't shoot another human being. Wasn't it another human being who raped and threatened her life?
Besides the training that you recommend, it should be restated here that sometimes just producing a gun in response to an attack is enough to deter further action. And sometimes it does not.
All armed citizens should know about this.
Upon reviewing my post, I cannot see just how I have "blamed the victim" in any stretch of the imagination.
"RBob," I do not at all presume that her attacker knew beforehand that she would not pull the trigger on her, and therefor decided she was the one he would target. I do not think either that she some how advertised for a rapist; making publicly known that she would not defend herself.
You are absolutely correct Bob, that I was not there at the incident.
-Neither were you.
People often make statements as to what was going on in their mind that turn out to be deceptive or downright lies, or the truth. Who knows?
Just as you said.
May I post here with my observations Bob? Just as you do? I'll admit I could and may be wrong, but for the sake of dialogue, it is there.
And Bob, just how do you know that I am self righteous, since as you state
you cannot possibly know what is going on in other's minds. Isn't that so?
You said it yourself; one version -of the mall shooting. There are other versions available right here on THR. Most of them are not contrdictory either.
The ones I read stated he had the shooter in his sights. The police did not arrive for considerable time. The man who was armed had been for a time behind cover.
I'm not gleeful that this woman was brutalized. It was a heinous crime.
She didn't "deserve" it.
She should have shot her attacker however.
For those who have had decades of social conditioning and autonomically presume that to be a criticism; please do not "read into" what is stated, but rather give me the benefit of the doubt that I can express my thoughts in writing rather than insinuation.
I thought she should have shot him.
What do you speculate as to why she didn't ; given her response as that she
couldn't shoot another human being. Wasn't it another human being who raped and threatened her life?
Besides the training that you recommend, it should be restated here that sometimes just producing a gun in response to an attack is enough to deter further action. And sometimes it does not.
All armed citizens should know about this.
bogie
Member
Guys.
I'll try to say it slower this time.
It's a matter of training, conditioning, and mindset.
If I had some guy trying to rape me, I don't think I'd have any problem at all with shooting him. Twice. Maybe 3-4 times. Heck, go for slide lock.
Then again, when I was about eight, we caught a possum that'd been eating our poultry... Being children, we (a) weren't happy that the ducks and chickens were being eaten; and (b) highly pragmatic about it.
At the time, we had BB guns. So we cornered the critter, and popped him a buncha times. Then we got the bow and arrow - Real bow, arrows with target points. Zapped him a coupla times all the way through, pretty much point blank range.
Then we were concerned he was playing possum. So we decapitated him with the ax from the woodpile.
I suspect I was raised differently from the victim.
I'll try to say it slower this time.
It's a matter of training, conditioning, and mindset.
If I had some guy trying to rape me, I don't think I'd have any problem at all with shooting him. Twice. Maybe 3-4 times. Heck, go for slide lock.
Then again, when I was about eight, we caught a possum that'd been eating our poultry... Being children, we (a) weren't happy that the ducks and chickens were being eaten; and (b) highly pragmatic about it.
At the time, we had BB guns. So we cornered the critter, and popped him a buncha times. Then we got the bow and arrow - Real bow, arrows with target points. Zapped him a coupla times all the way through, pretty much point blank range.
Then we were concerned he was playing possum. So we decapitated him with the ax from the woodpile.
I suspect I was raised differently from the victim.
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