Smurfslayer
Member
Who initiated the attack, who was the attacker?
Think about both sides of this for a moment - I know it's difficult, but for a moment let's get past the preconceptions we all have of either "the cop is always right" or the "cop is always wrong".
The bill was alleged to have not been paid.
Stowe, an Alexandria PD officer (in uniform?) was informed and gave chase.
His 1st approach was to step in front of the vehicle, order it to stop.
This particular IHOP parking lot is tight, not conducive to autocross speeds.
At some point after ordering the vehicle to stop, Stowe decided he would shoot.
As Longwatch pointed out, he managed to do this in a span of time that a full, underpowered mid size SUV was approaching, from a retention holster.
His shot(s) killed an innocent ( not proven guilty ) passenger.
Did the officer have his gun out when he made the command to stop?
A theory has been put forward by one of the survivors that they were trying to pass the buck for paying the bill, and merely forgot to do so. This is not to excuse the act of leaving without paying, just to make some posters *think* that it just hasn't been proven this was an intentional act.
If the officer's gun was out - felony stop for at best a minor misdemeanor, we have a whole new dynamic here. What if the driver thought the bill was paid? What would a reasonable person think in those circumstances? Flee?
Let's address the alcohol & drug issue. The driver is under 21, and the standard in VA for under 21 is ridiculously less than .08, trace amounts of alcohol from nyquil would show up. We have no proof here who the marijuana actually belonged to, do we?
Even if the driver was a stoner, and drunk to adult standards, neither of these substances has a reputation of enhancing reaction time, in fact, we're dealing with depressants/mild hallucinagenic.
What I find difficult to understand here - The commonwealths atty. (Stengel) found this a justified shooting, but the PD found that Stowe escalated the level of force by both stepping in front of the vehicle and then claiming lethal force justification. Two arms of the same branch of gov't disagree here on the findings, but both agree it's not criminal? If the PD found that the force was escalated by Stowe, then doesn't that invalidate the Commonwealth's Attorney's findings? Shouldn't this now be put to a grand jury?
There's no question that a car, truck or suv bearing down on you intentionally is lethal force or grave bodily harm. But you can't claim self defense against a closing vehicle while you're crossing the street in a crosswalk if the vehicle is coming to a stop...
There's no bright line standard for person/vehicle encounters and the totality of the circumstance must be accounted for.
IMO, neither the driver, nor Stowe are blameless here, and it should be worthy of investigation of both of their actions.
Think about both sides of this for a moment - I know it's difficult, but for a moment let's get past the preconceptions we all have of either "the cop is always right" or the "cop is always wrong".
The bill was alleged to have not been paid.
Stowe, an Alexandria PD officer (in uniform?) was informed and gave chase.
His 1st approach was to step in front of the vehicle, order it to stop.
This particular IHOP parking lot is tight, not conducive to autocross speeds.
At some point after ordering the vehicle to stop, Stowe decided he would shoot.
As Longwatch pointed out, he managed to do this in a span of time that a full, underpowered mid size SUV was approaching, from a retention holster.
His shot(s) killed an innocent ( not proven guilty ) passenger.
Did the officer have his gun out when he made the command to stop?
A theory has been put forward by one of the survivors that they were trying to pass the buck for paying the bill, and merely forgot to do so. This is not to excuse the act of leaving without paying, just to make some posters *think* that it just hasn't been proven this was an intentional act.
If the officer's gun was out - felony stop for at best a minor misdemeanor, we have a whole new dynamic here. What if the driver thought the bill was paid? What would a reasonable person think in those circumstances? Flee?
Let's address the alcohol & drug issue. The driver is under 21, and the standard in VA for under 21 is ridiculously less than .08, trace amounts of alcohol from nyquil would show up. We have no proof here who the marijuana actually belonged to, do we?
Even if the driver was a stoner, and drunk to adult standards, neither of these substances has a reputation of enhancing reaction time, in fact, we're dealing with depressants/mild hallucinagenic.
What I find difficult to understand here - The commonwealths atty. (Stengel) found this a justified shooting, but the PD found that Stowe escalated the level of force by both stepping in front of the vehicle and then claiming lethal force justification. Two arms of the same branch of gov't disagree here on the findings, but both agree it's not criminal? If the PD found that the force was escalated by Stowe, then doesn't that invalidate the Commonwealth's Attorney's findings? Shouldn't this now be put to a grand jury?
There's no question that a car, truck or suv bearing down on you intentionally is lethal force or grave bodily harm. But you can't claim self defense against a closing vehicle while you're crossing the street in a crosswalk if the vehicle is coming to a stop...
There's no bright line standard for person/vehicle encounters and the totality of the circumstance must be accounted for.
IMO, neither the driver, nor Stowe are blameless here, and it should be worthy of investigation of both of their actions.
