update on kid shot at ihop

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this hapa haole says

the cops shoot cars sorry if the episodes you watch didn't show it

according to the kids they were all aware he was a cop one of the brothers in the front seat told the dimwit to go the girl allegedly screamed


bingo to the man who brought up the tight turn. one of the things that focused the witnesses on the jeep was it sqealing wheels as it went around corner. interestingly enough one of the best witnesses was the guy who had earlier been detained the released by stowe. and most peculiar he backs stowes story.
and as to the lastest bit of unsubstantiated "stuff" you posted, that stowe ran out in front of them . even the dimwits don't claim that stowe was already out in parking lot as they rounded corner and gunned it at him. bad move real bad for guy in back


and "just guessing" and unsubstantiated stuff has another name in some circles b ut hey if it makes ya feel good ita all good right? thats probably what the kids in the car were thinking too right up to when they realized their friend was shot
 
Back in the '30's the Chief of Police in Lowell, Michigan stepped into the street and held up his hand to stop a touring car that was rapidly leaving Grand Rapids, Michigan on highway M-21. The individuals in the touring car had robbed a bank.

The Chief got a white glove funeral and everybody moved up a notch on the police department.
 
this thread just won't die.

Lets all calm down, & be sure to pay for yer IHOP meals, tip the waitress and DO NOT try to run over cops when they ask you to stop.
 
Those times to cover the distance were from the report of the commonwealths attorney; they were quoted from the PD accident reconstruction team. Their findings were that "conservatively" the impact was in excess of 24 mph. That's meaning the speed upon impact.

Again, if you read the findings of the investigation from the commonwealths attorney's report about the physical evidence, we have at least 2 holes in the front, one through the side window, 2 in the rear. The numbers do not add up, physically, for Stowe to come outside and attempt a stop, then move, draw and engage 6 shots while still evading, turning to CONTINUE FIRING, at the fleeing vehicle regardless of any bystanders. Stowe claims a 1 hand grip, the occupants claim a 2 hand grip. Stowe said he was "arms up" in a motion to stop the vehicle, then he realizes that's not going to happen because the vehicle swerves, so he gets in front again, THEN engages.

3 - 3.8 seconds is the time required based on the findings of the accident team, and it's consistent with commonly accepted math actually. This time will decrease if you increase the impact speed, and the range they're talking about - again "conservatively" is 24 - 29 mph. If we were to use an even 30 mph impact speed - these are their numbers guys - we're talking 3 seconds flat or less for all of this to happen. I haven't seen Stowe at any local competitions, seen him mentioned by NRA, or heard of him locally. Let's give him credit for an average draw and presentation with 2 shots on a stationary target at 30 feet of 2.0 seconds, each follow up taking .25 seconds - that's 3.0 seconds not inclusive of the strapped retention holster and the evasive action.

The report is 54 pages, but double spaced. It contains a lot of jargon but isn't totally boring. there is some salient case law omitted.

APD suspended Stowe for the very act we're arguing about here. His own department said that he initiated and escalated the confrontation at IHOP - their words- and used the situation that he created to justify the use of lethal force. Legally speaking, that's a "booby trap". APD knows that Stowe's numbers don't add up, and that's probably a big reason you see the "conservative" estimate of speed on impact of the Jeep. If Stowe's account were reliable and physically provable, the driver would be in jail now-he's not because Stengel knows that if he charges the driver for this act, Stowe will be called as a witness, under oath. He knows that he will lose.

There's "less than truthfulness" on both sides of this encounter, the question is which side is being less truthful. That's what juries are for.
 
I wish I was familiar with the layout of the parking lot. Is the "3 - 3.8 seconds" the total time from 0 mph to the speed impact speed of 29 mph or did they start timing from a rolling start? I guess I should read the report to go along with all of the reports in the Post. Most of my questions all along have had to do with acceleration - did the vehicle accelerate at a constant rate while this swerve-and-dance ballet was being played out or was there some hesitation with a burst of speed near the end.

Too early, I need another cup of coffee.

John
 
Smurf
3 - 3.8 seconds is the time required based on the findings of the accident team, and it's consistent with commonly accepted math ...
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Your math is still bad. It would be about 3 sec ONLY if the speed was a constant 30 mph. Accelerating from a very slow speed to 30 or so, would AVERAGE about half the impact speed, for almost twice the time.
 
You can talk about it all you want. Shooting anybody for skipping out on a check is wrong. Like some of you have clearly stated, he should have noted the make, model and license number of the vehicle and called it in to the station. They would have determined the owner and his address, sent a squad car over there and this kid would have been in more trouble than he could handle. Not only from the cops, but I'm sure his father would have something to say to him as well. This cop gives good cops everywhere a bad name and he should be facing manslaughter charges. I can't believe how some of you attempt, and poorly at that, to justify this.

Additionally, we are SUPPOSED to be a nation of laws and all equal under the law. There is no exception for the police, or least there didn't used to be. No wonder we are in the process of descending into a third world hole, most of you are not only going along with it, but cheer leading for it.
 
it takes a quick NFL back ~4.4 seconds to do a standing 40 yard dash; that's 120 feet and I'm not familiar with anyone actually recording a top speed or 'trap' speed. The vehicle - again, from the report - was at a rolling start around the turn, NOT from a standstill.
 
this hapa haole says

the cops shoot cars sorry if the episodes you watch didn't show it

according to the kids they were all aware he was a cop one of the brothers in the front seat told the dimwit to go the girl allegedly screamed
Click to expand...
Right, cause inside the ihop they saw the cop sitting there in uniform. It was ok for them to plan the dine and dash in plain view of the PO right? but of course when the cop gave chase, the girls story changed for fear of the trouble she was now facing.

bingo to the man who brought up the tight turn. one of the things that focused the witnesses on the jeep was it sqealing wheels as it went around corner. interestingly enough one of the best witnesses was the guy who had earlier been detained the released by stowe. and most peculiar he backs stowes story.
Click to expand...
I'm willing to bet that my "guessing" is more accurate that what the PD and Wash Post wrote up to protect Stowe.

and as to the lastest bit of unsubstantiated "stuff" you posted, that stowe ran out in front of them . even the dimwits don't claim that stowe was already out in parking lot as they rounded corner and gunned it at him. bad move real bad for guy in back
Click to expand...
This statement confuses me.
If they claim Stowe was NOT already out in front of them......then who did he gun his jeep at when he rounded the corner?



and "just guessing" and unsubstantiated stuff has another name in some circles b ut hey if it makes ya feel good ita all good right? thats probably what the kids in the car were thinking too right up to when they realized their friend was shot
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Cassandra....twist my words around till you are blue in the face, obviously its what makes you happy on this forum. Every thread that questions goodcop/badcop you are in there cheerleading for the cop. Either you are a cop on the take, or your "daddy" is a cop. If what happened at that ihop is ok with you, next time you get robbed.....shoot the guy in the back that is running out your house with your TV.

The whole point to all of this is that Stowe was justified to shoot if his life was in danger. Just like the PD policy states, he has to exhaust all other means before discharging his sidearm. He DID NOT. HE PUT HIMSELF in danger and then killed an innocent kid.
Sorry, but to me that equates to getting your CCP and then starting fights you know you can't win so that you can shoot your opponent. Real high class. :rolleyes:
 
more examples

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010402175.html

see? in reallity the cops do shoot when cars come at em. and not just on reallity tv
Click to expand...

Cassandra, great example. Not for you, but for me.
That story is SOOOOO similar to the IHOP story. Your link talked about, police chaseing the suspects in a minivan with stolen tags. Was the van stolen to? Probably. after spining out the cops emerged from their patrol cars to apprehend the 2 in the van. they came out guns drawn but were NOT shooting on what probably was GTA. then the suspects began ramming the patrol cars that had them boxed in. One PO was injured BEFORE they opened fire and killed the driver and wounded the passenger.

Cassandra, thanks again for proving my and others points about having just cause to use deadly force. Might want to read links that you THINK help your argument before you post them Einstein. ;)
 
Haole - this isn't new - you must have missed the other example given where he gave the story about someone who was beaten by 5 individuals, ran away, was chased, then shot them in defense; he seemed to think that this was a great example of his case too, when in reality it was a totally different situation that underscored the differences in how the cop acted compared to the fellow in his story... Alot of his remarks are just totally random and unrelated; i think it's a lost cause.
 
Killing a kid for not paying a breakfast tab? Wow... I thought I had seen it all. The police state we seem to live in is ridiculous. Shoot first, ask questions later. Never mind getting the plate #, make, & model of the car & a description of the kids (probably local & easy to find). Just shoot him. That's the spirit! :rolleyes: Who needs this "innocent until proven guilty" garbage? :banghead:
 
"This statement confuses me.
If they claim Stowe was NOT already out in front of them......then who did he gun his jeep at when he rounded the corner?"


sorry i confused ya. in your earlier post you claimed stowe ran out in front of them gun drawn . according to the witnesses including the kids in the jeep stowe was already in the lot when they rounded the corner. if we were to belive the front seat passenger he was firing on thewm as they rounded corner. though hes backed off that statement in lkight of the other witnesses and the ballistics. stowe was in the middle of the lot when they gunned it and drove at him "swerving from side to side"

you were confused then too


"I'm willing to bet that my "guessing" is more accurate that what the PD and Wash Post wrote up to protect Stowe."

really what you willing to bet? or whas that more rehtoric
 
sorry i confused some one else

Haole - this isn't new - you must have missed the other example given where he gave the story about someone who was beaten by 5 individuals, ran away, was chased, then shot them in defense; he seemed to think that this was a great example of his case too, when in reality it was a totally different situation that underscored the differences in how the cop acted compared to the fellow in his story... Alot of his remarks are just totally random and unrelated; i think it's a lost cause.
Today 03:16 PM


the reference to the other shooting was in response to some of the claims "that if he was a civilian he's be in jail" since some if not most of these claims originated with folks who live in less enlightened state i sought to let them know it works beter in the old dominion. and tried to, and apparently failed at least in your case to show that the cop went through extra hoops because he was a cop. in the case i cited we had 5 on t no weapons no charges minimal investigation. in the ihop case we have 5 kids in a 3000 pound car driving at the cop we have the girl saying she thought they were gonna kill em. we have the driver aknowledging that the cop probably thought that and then a host of the helpful venting their own feelings that contradict the other witnesses(including the guy who was cuffed and detained by stowe just prior to the shooting.) as well as the statements of two of the folks who weree in the jeep.
if the confusion stemes from my being unclear i am sorry
if on the other hand your reasons for thinking thst your opinion is more accurate than that of the folks there , including two of the dead guys friends, stems from some sorta deep seated issue on your end i'm even sorrier.
 
Sorry Cassandra, but no matter how much you try and defend the indefensible, you will get nowhere. You simply do not kill children for skipping out on a tab, period. As I and others have clearly stated this thug should have noted the make model and license and called it in. These kids would have come home to a big surprise and all would still be alive.
 
Juna
Killing a kid for not paying a breakfast tab?
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So you think the High Road to winning an argument is a flat-out lie? That wasn’t why he was killed, and everyone, including you, knows that. Are you trying to provoke a flame war, or do you just want to be on an ignore list?
 
i did it again!

so sorry i confused you yet again

"Cassandra, great example. Not for you, but for me.
That story is SOOOOO similar to the IHOP story. Your link talked about, police chaseing the suspects in a minivan with stolen tags. Was the van stolen to? Probably. after spining out the cops emerged from their patrol cars to apprehend the 2 in the van. they came out guns drawn but were NOT shooting on what probably was GTA. then the suspects began ramming the patrol cars that had them boxed in. One PO was injured BEFORE they opened fire and killed the driver and wounded the passenger.

Cassandra, thanks again for proving my and others points about having just cause to use deadly force. Might want to read links that you THINK help your argument before you post them Einstein. "

someone and i don't believe it was you posted a line about "all the 100's of police chase he watches on tv that never have shots fired" and i happened to read the paper and saw a local example of what he claims doesn't happen. and it seems i confused you more with my belief that in both cases the guys were using their car for a weapon. am i confused in that you think they need to wait till after the fools hit them for it be a good shooting? that trying isn't enough?

if you thought that post was directed to you i am sorry , it really isn't all about you, no matter what mom told ya.

you see the real failure was the cop not being able to tell that "stevo " was just trying to make him jump outa the way when he drove at him swerving from side to side. his ability to read minds was deficent and he probably foolishly saw 3000 pounds of jeep driving at him as a theat to his life. ita and old guy thing i gues since i woulda though the same thing. who knows as you age you might find that your belief in mind reading will change and you might grow to dislike the idea of some one squealing wheels and driving at you.


and get back to me about a bet i love gambling we can make the payoffs to charities, its not the money i like.
 
"That wasn’t why he was killed, and everyone, including you, knows that."

And that too. I'm still shaking my head at the comment about somebody being "a cop on the take"

Have I stumbled onto the THR/Junior High Edition?

John
 
lol john bt

yea there are a couple folks who know me that would find the idea of me being a cop "amusing".shucks i've been busted more times than some of the kids here have had sex , before i retired and changed my ways that is.
and you know? none of those times did i ever whimper whine or try to pretend it was someone elses fault
 
H VIII
You simply do not kill children for skipping out on a tab, period.
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Stowe didn’t. He shot because they were risking HIS life, not because of the tab. And you know that. Driver hits the brakes; no shots fired. Simple. (And why were THEY risking lives? $26 worth of pancakes. Nothng more. Idiots.)
As I and others have clearly stated this thug should have noted the make model ...
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And tomorrow it turns out the plates and/or the vehicle were stolen, and the thug who damn near killed him is long gone. Why should he risk that, to protect people who have so little regard for HIS safety?
 
?

"And why were THEY risking lives? $26 worth of pancakes. Nothng more. Idiots.)"

why? because they thought they could get away with it. they'd gotten away with plenty before so why should this be different.

the two brothers are the key moving force here, saw one on tv a piece of work hopefully i can see him again next time i go to powhatan to visit
 
What is this; "AND YOU KNOW IT" stuff? No I don't know it, I wasn't there. As far as I know, from the information I have, he could have jumped out of the way and let a squad go to the house. Do you really think this cop felt he was facing down a gang of career criminals driving a stolen car?
 
OK, I just can't resist this one. I put in over 3000 miles per year on a road bike and another few hundred or so on foot. I am horrified at the way LEOs use their cars and allow motorists to do the same when around pedestrians and cyclists, so I am well aware that a car is a very deadly weapon. Given that,

1. If you're going to shoot in self defense, you had better make sure of your target before you pull the triger.

2. With the exception of hitting the driver, shooting into the passenger area of a car won't stop it, slow it down, turn it or even hinder it's function. Why spray all your bullets into the passenger area? Hitting the engine compartment is more likely to produce a disabled vehicle. How can you justify spraying the vehicle indiscriminately?

In my opinion this cop was out of control. I think the same of the guys in NYC that lit up the car near the strip joint. Sure, you can shoot the tires, the engine or the DRIVER, but what gives them the right to just spray and pray with no regard for anyone else in the vehicle?
 
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