Update on the .50 GI 1911...

[Marcus]

Disappointing. 725fps??? Gad zooks,you could almost watch the bullet in the air. A 250gr./850fps combo would be pretty cool but not in a $2800 gun...... Marcus

 

[1911Tuner]

Slow

Marcus said:

Gad zooks,you could almost watch the bullet in the air.

Not almost...Can! Get the sun at your back just over your shoulder. Shoot
some Hornady XTP HPs. You'll swear it's a tracer. Under the right light, I've tracked full-bore .357 Magnum rounds all the way to a 100-yard target. Light just perfect, and you can catch a glimpse of a 165-grain bullet out of a .308 rifle. Neat stuff!

Tuner

 

[grendelbane]

Yes indeed! The first time I ever saw bullets in flight, it was a W-W Silvertip .45 ACP. Yes, the Sun was behind us. Almost 4 decades later, and I still remember it.
The idea of a .50 is cute, and it was bound to be tried sooner or later.

It may not be a good idea, (other than from a marketing viewpoint), but it is far from the worst idea I have ever heard.

I have a Grizzly Mk1.

I also realize the primary problem in higher powered pistols is not presure, but slide velocity.

Just read some of the posts from Clark. Modern pistols, and brass, can take the pressure of hot loads, but how many designs can take the battering of such heavy loads?

When brute power is required, I will use my revolvers. When the target requires less than that, I will use my semi-automatic pistols.

For situations in between, I will wing it.

 

[Ford]

300 gr at 700 to 725 fps?
So this means that actuall velocities probably won't hit even 700 fps.
I don't know , it's not doing much for me.
Like others said, It need to be 850 + fps IMHO.
I know that I don't want to be the first one to spend $3k on it to see if it will function properly.

 

[doublebarrel]

They posted the price on their web site, among other things...

http://guncrafterindustries.com/model_1.htm

I think this fat cartridge look so cool...

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

... i wonder if you could modify a UMP to shoot this.

 

[Sean Smith]

Well, the price of the thing wasn't a rumor. Let's see, half the power of 10mm Auto, factory ammo prices will probably make 10mm look like .22LR by comparison, and it costs 50% more than the Yost custom job in 10mm I've got. I can't see this being a viable venture for $3,000 a pop... maybe half that price?

 

[1911Tuner]

Velocities

Just out of morbid curiosity, I dug up a GI Rand...

I went down to the ol' loadin' bench and cobbled up a few .45 rounds
with X.Y grains of Unique and a Speer 250 grain lead semi-wadcutter.
(.45 Colt bullet) Without any undue signs of pressure or excessive
recoil/frame battering, using a fresh 16 pound spring, the chronograph
insists that the average for 5 shots was 877 fps. Functioning was
perfect, and the slide locked open on empty. Unless the makers of the
killer-diller, double throwdown Fat Fifty plan on a +p loading later on,
the .45 beats it hands down for terminal ballistics. The extra 50 grains
and .050 inch of bullet diameter may will make up for part of the difference,
but...Will the cross-sectional difference of the 50 limit penetration? If
it does..which it likely will...how much? Will it be a good thing or a bad thing? Will it penetrate "enough" without overpenetrating? Or will
it fail to penetrate deeply enough that it can't be relied on to reach the
vitals of a human attacker under all circumstances? (Heavy clothing...
diagonal shots...automobile sheet metal, etc.)

Since the implied role of such a pistol is for the purposes of duty/defense...
these things need to be assessed, methinks.

What say you all?

Tuner

 

[Sean Smith]

Actually, a 300gr .50 is going to have a higher sectional density than a 230gr .45 ACP. So all else being equal, which it usually ain't, I'd expect it to penetrate more, not less, than the .45.

http://benchrest.com/sst/sd.html

 

[1911Tuner]

Dense 50

Sean said:

Actually, a 300gr .50 is going to have a higher sectional density than a 230gr .45 ACP.

But...Will the higher sectional density be enough to overcome the cross
sectional drag of the 50 with its low velocity? It would be interesting
to see the test results on a side-by-side comparison. My guess is that
my handload with the 250 grain pill would outpenetrate it by a considerable
margin.

I ain't willin' to spend the bucks for one of my very own to test, though.
Now...if the members wanna chip in and buy me one, I'll be happy to wring it out thorougly and report in detail..

Chitty Chitty Boom-Boom...

Tuner

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Tuner, would you trust that handload on hog?

 

[1911Tuner]

Hogload

Andrew asked:

Tuner, would you trust that handload on hog?

Only if the pistol was a backup to my .358 Winchester rifle.

Seriously though, if you're talking about feral pigs, sure. If I'm in
the puckerbrush with a wounded Black Russian Boar...nossir!
D'ruther face a bear than a pissed off pig with me on the radar screen.
Those things are the baddest news this side of Cape Buffalo. They're
not afraid of ANY-thing, and they'll pick a fight with a moving Land Rover just because they're bored.
Ask me how I know...

A friend of mine was talking to me once about how he'd like to hunt boar with a lance...in the traditional European style of Kings. I told him that
the LAST thing he wanted was a pig on a stick. "You will lose that fight."

Pen me:

Tuner the tree-climber...

 

[Black Snowman]

I really think a .50 auto needs a bigger chassis than the 1911 to be a signifigant and functional improvement over the .45, particularly the .45 super. I think with a slightly larger .50 round in a USP .45 size gun and you've got a potent duty weapon with a heavy enough slide to handle the power.

In my uneducated, inexperianced, and unfunded opinion I want just a little bigger If it can't squarely beat the .45 Super in power I really don't see a point in making the effort other than to just have a bigger hole. I still want to make my .50 ASP, which would be a slightly longer .50 GI pushing closer to 900 FPS with a 325 gr Gold Dot. For about $3000 I might even be able to make it happen.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sean, the .50GI may penetrate a little more than the .45 acp, maybe not. That has yet to be seen. But what the heck, without mortar sights, the drop rate on the .50 GI is going to be so much that shooting anything at 50 yards or more is just going to be an exercise in semi-controlled lobbing of 300 gr. slugs.

I but the 9 mm folks are just laughing. If a .45 is slow and heavy at 850 fps and 230 gr and we know the drop rates it has, then just imagine how much slower and heavier the .50 GI and how much more of a drop rate it will have than a .45 acp.

That is not a trait I am looking for in a gun, something with a greater drop rate than a .45 acp.

 

[bigjim]

Drop drop past 50 yards is much less important than people drop at point blank. This People drop is something I suspect the .50 GI will do well.

I have seen 300 grain pistol bullets expanded. They are bigger than a quarter when fully expanded. If you can make a Bullet for the .50 GI with a big big hollow point cavity that reliably expands to over a inch in diameter and still goes deep enough to get to the vitals this will be a real contender for street king. Still not a magic wand for droping goblins but maybe a step closer.

Imagine to effect of something bigger than a broom handle pushed all the way through your lung. I am guessing blood pressure would drop rapidly.

 

[Nightcrawler]

That is not a trait I am looking for in a gun, something with a greater drop rate than a .45 acp.

All objects accelerate towards the ground at 32 meters per second, squared.

Did they publish the velocity? Why so low? Why not drop the grainage and up teh velocity? You still get the bigger hole.

How about a 260 grain bullet at 900 feet per second?

 

[1911Tuner]

Rate of Drop

T'was said:

All objects accelerate towards the ground at 32 meters per second, squared.

T'is true...but the longer the object is in the air, the farther it drops
at a given distance.

With a 100 yard zero, the difference in drop between a 30-30 and a
.220 Swift is signifigant. I believe DoubleNaught's reference to drop
was related to the flight time of the bullet from muzzle to target.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Tuner is correct, hence the reference to the mortar sights.

Yes, the information was provided on 1911forum by t-tac. http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69478&highlight=mortar

Why is the velocity so low? My guess is that the longevity of the frame is in question in regard to the weight of the slug. No doubt the extra recoil would take its toll on the frame fairly quickly if the energy the frame is to handle is going to be much more than what JMB designed into the regular 1911 gun, which the .50 GI is fit into. If the .50 GI were to exceed the standards of the .45acp setup, such as with a super sonic round, the platform will suffer, then fail.

 

[BluesBear]

I have seen 300 grain pistol bullets expanded.

Not at <700fps you haven't. Unless it was a Reynolds Wrap jacket over a Silly Putty Core.

For 40 years I have watched the .45/.357 debates.
For 30 years I have watched the 9mm/.45 debates.
For 15 years I have wayched the .40/.45 debates.
All well and good because there was at least anecdotal if not factual evidence for the arguments.

Now we're having the .50/.45 debate and no one's even fired one yet.

We're talking bullets people, not cookie cutters.
The majority concensus seems to be that temporary stretch cavity is not important. Will the human body be able to tell the difference between a .45" hole and a .50" one?

Given the same velocity and diameter penetration increases with weight.
Given the same velocity and weight penetration decreases with diameter.

Do you think that a slower, wider bullet, neavier bullet will somehow be able to perform better?

Didn't we go through something like this 50 years ago with the Winchester .38 Special 200gr Super Police load?

But then I doubt the 50 year old shooter is the target demographic.

 

[Feanaro]

Am I the only one not impressed?

 

[1911Tuner]

Impressions

Feanaro asked:

Am I the only one not impressed?

Count me in on that number...

BluesBear...good points.

There is somethin' about the thoughts of that fat, heavy slug's impact
at 5 feet that makes me go...OWWWWWTCH, though.
Maybe that's the intent of the designer. Maximum thump at close
range. Penetration won't really be a factor. It won't have to expand.
Think of the wound photos that we've seen of the .58 caliber Minie'
from the War for Southern Independence Those started at about
950 fps, and the ballistic coefficient on those was such that, even at 100
yards, the bullet probably wasn't clocking much over 600 fps...yet the
damage that they caused was horrific, and the terminal effect was
immediate and dramatic. THUMP! Man down.

Will it be any better than the .45, or even the 9mm in its terminal effect
at close range? No way to tell really...until it hits the street in sufficient
numbers to obtain a database...and at 3,000 dollars a copy, that may take a long time.

Good debate, and good points by all.

Tuner

 

[45auto]

On the plus side, this new entry is what keeps the 1911 "fresh and different" so to speak.

IMHO, the 1911 platform excels in a larger bore both in user control and durability. Smaller calibers, although fine in a 1911 work well in many platforms, unlike larger calibers...revolvers excluded of course.

As long as it's "shootable", I'd rather see this direction than the 45 gap for example...for the 1911 anyway. Expanding bullets of, perhaps, an inch can't be all bad. Fun gun for now.

But, we'll see.

 

[1911Tuner]

But, WAIT!

We may never know if it'll fly. When word gets to the Dream Team of
Feinstein, Schumer, Clinton, Clinton, and Kennedy the reaction will be
one of abject horror! I can hear'em now...

"FIRST Smith & Wesson turned loose on an unsuspecting public, a
horrific weapon of destruction in a .500 caliber revolver, and NOW we have to face the destructive power of a 50 caliber Semi-Automatic ASSAULT
pistol that is not only smaller and completely CONCEALABLE under a
tube top...it has more FIREPOWER! Ladies and gentlemen...A .50
caliber weapon has been used to bring warplanes down by our military.
It's only a matter of time before the TERRORIST CELLS in this country
get these things and begin shooting our commercial jetliners down.
They may even be able to bring down an F-16! We cannot allow the
gun culture to bring our country to ruin with this horrible weapon of
mass destruction. These things are a greater threat than sniper rifles
and machine guns! The street gangs will be able to blow police cars up
with it. It will bring about global warming with its muzzle blast and tremendous rate of FIRE! We must save the children! We must save the soccer moms! We owe it to future generations!

Vote for me.

 

[Kamicosmos]

wow! I almost thought I was reading an actual politicians statement there Tuner!


My take on this particualar round is a big unimpressed. It really doesn't seem to do anything a .45 can't.

Now, bump the velocity up to near a grand, and it starts to interest me, but the bigger gun needed for that doesn't.

If I want a thumper of a caliber, I go to my 44's, or will load my 45 up a bit.

 

[BluesBear]

1911Tuner wrote;
These things are a greater threat than sniper rifles and machine guns! The street gangs will be able to blow police cars up with it. It will bring about global warming with its muzzle blast and tremendous rate of FIRE!

Not to worry.
RBCD doesn't load ammo for it yet.