update RE: little girl killed by bear in TN gun free utopia

[gunsmith]

you guys stomp yer feet as much as you like

I always carry grizzly bear pepper spray, even in the city.
I also carry a dang gun.
This thread is not about poaching or shooting bear because you are scared, Rambo or a tenderfoot.
It is about your natural right to use tools to defend your life even when walking in a National Park or forest.

Razorburn, click on the link in the op for the source on legality of gun carry RE mom.

 

[22-rimfire]

I called the state, it is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on National Forest lands in Tennessee except during the hunting season and at formal shooting ranges. So, as you mentioned Gunsmith, firearms of any kind were illegal where the bear attack occurred except during hunting season assuming you have a valid hunting license, any necessary tags, and the firearm is suitable or legal for hunting the animal that is in season at that moment in time. So, your quote at the begining of the first link is accurate. This needs to be changed.

 

[lacoochee]

What study shows that pepper spray is more effective in stopping bears than a firearm? When I am in National Parks I follow the rule that concealed means concealed and carry a .357, the only time I see a ranger is when I actually go looking for one.

 

[22-rimfire]

I feel the same way.

 

[waynesan]

Bear was actually driven away with a gun.

I did some research on this story and found several reports that said a Mr. Danny Stinnett actually used a .380 handgun to drive the bear away from the child. Its amazing that this was "missed" by so many of the reports.

Here is the link: http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/wildlife/mammals/cherokee-fatal-bear-attack.html


Here is the story:

Notice paragraph seven:

Cherokee National Forest
April 13, 2006
Updated 10:00 am 4/18/06 - Join a discussion on attack!

Susan Cenkus, 45, and two of her children, Luke, 2 and Elora Petrasek, 6, were attacked by a black bear while visiting the Cherokee National Forest southeast Tennessee. Six year old Elora was killed during the attack and both Susan and Luke were seriously injured.

Susan, a nurse from Clyde, Ohio and her children, Luke Elora were in the area to visit Susan's oldest son who is attending school at Lee University in Cleveland.

Susan took the two youngest children to Benton Falls, a popular destination in the the Cherokee National Forest, not far from Clevland. As they were leaving the area around the waterfalls a bear was sighted near the trail. As adults tried to scare the bear away it ran in and grabbed two year old Luke Cenkus by the head.

Susan used rocks and sticks to try to get the bear to let go of Luke. When bear droppped Luke, it attacked Susan, dragging her into the forest.

Other people hiking in the area joined in and drove the bear away from Susan. However, sometime during the panic of the attack, 6 year old Elora apparently ran off into the woods or down the trail.

When they realized Elora was missing a frantic search of the area was immediately started. By the time Danny Stinnett was able to find her, the black bear was standing over her lifeless body she was approximately 80 yards away with.

He shot at the bear twice a .380 pistol. The bear abandon it post and ran off into the woods.

As people pulled together to help during the tragedy one person was able to get a cell phone call out for help while another got to a car and went to the closest ranger station to report the incident.
Susan and Luke were flown by helicopter to nearby Chattanooga hospital where both were listed in serious condition and had to undergo surgery.

Members of the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency (TWRA) and National Forest Service converged on the area and set traps and snares in the area to catch the bear.
On the second day TWRA found tracks near one of the traps, but no bear. On the third day a male black bear was found in a live trap in the area of the attack. The bear was subsequently euthenized and it's body taken to the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine. It's brain was been removed and tests determined the bear did not have rabies.

The necropsy was preformed by performed on April 17 under the direction of Dr. Robert Donnell, UT Vet School. No conclusive evidence was found that this was the bear involved in the fatal attack.

The TWRA is continuing to monitor the traps and at this point DNA may have to be relied upon to determine whether this is, or is not in the bear involved in last weeks attack.

 

[psyopspec]

Thanks for shedding new light on this Waynesan. Hopefully Stinnett isn't charged, and ideally this story spreads.

 

[gunsmith]

Y'know

the guy with the .380
was a park fire and rescue officer and is authorized to carry in the NF, unlike folks like us who know that .380 is not enough gun.
This was discussed in the original thread that I posted

 

[lacoochee]

I am still not convinced that bear spray alone would be effective,

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm

I would say that maybe bear spray in conjunction with one of the below firarms:

Ruger Alaskan Super Redhawk 454 Casull 45 Colt ~$750

SMITH & WESSON 500 ES SURVIVAL KIT 500 S&W ~$1100

Taurus Tracker or raging Bull in whatever caliber

Honestly, whenever I hike or got to the park I just carry a S&W 360pd loaded with
125 gr. .357 jacketed soft points. I am reassessing that decision.

 

[gunsmith]

why not?

I am still not convinced that bear spray alone would be effective,

Don't you know that people posting stuff on the internet are using computers?

 

[hso]

If you've got a carry permit there's nothing prohibing you in the law from carrying in a national forrest in TN so I don't get the gun-free utiopia bit. What's your point?

 

[lacoochee]

As per 22-rimfire

I called the state, it is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on National Forest lands in Tennessee except during the hunting season and at formal shooting ranges. So, as you mentioned Gunsmith, firearms of any kind were illegal where the bear attack occurred except during hunting season assuming you have a valid hunting license, any necessary tags, and the firearm is suitable or legal for hunting the animal that is in season at that moment in time. So, your quote at the begining of the first link is accurate. This needs to be changed.

Until October of last year here in Florida this would have also been true, thank God we got it changed.

Here is why it was changed,

http://www.local6.com/news/5989961/detail.html

 

[Run&Shoot]

Bear spray sometimes, firearm always

I am sure bear spray is effective under certain circumstance. That's why I carry it.

BUT, I have been on plenty of hikes with lots of wind. It could be calm for a ways on the trail, and then as you round a bend at the end of a ridge you get hit by a strong cold wind. Likewise at night around the camp stove. You can get a strong wind coming downhill/down valley.

If circumstance allow then trying bear spray first is a good idea. But I like having a firearm along just in case.

It is similar to the case of alternative force options on the suburban or urban streets. Sure it would be nice to try pepper spray, then a taser, then an impact weapon before resorting to deadly force with a firearm. But then we would have to wear a duty belt like a policeman. The private citizen has limited space to carry defense items, especially if they have to remain concealed. If you can only carry a couple, then spray and a firearm are pretty good choices. But to trust your safety in town or the woods to just a spray is to me foolish. Your choice, but don't call others paranoid for wanting to be prepared for the worst. That's how the antis talk.

 

[AStone]

Cutting to the chase

Carry, no carry.
Pepper spray, gun.
Black bear, grizz, racoon.

IMO, as a biologist who's walked, backpacked, mountaineered, and slept in tents (for 33 years) in TN, MS, AR, VT, NH, MN, NY, NM, CO, AZ, UT, NV, WA, WY, OR and numerous other states where there are bears,
Feedthehogs (post 6) offered the most relevant and important information in the thread.

I'm quoting it below lest is be overlooked and ignored.
(Emphasis added.)

Wake up, people. We are not alone on this planet.
If the mother had understood basics of bear biology and ecology, including behavior,
when in bear country she'd have kept her kids near her (like bear moms do),
and not unexpectedly found the bear with a paw on her son,
and her daughter would still be alive.

Killing off everything that attacks humans is not an answer.

Getting to KNOW those animals so that one can intelligently and intuitively avoid conflict is the answer.

Why isn't that being taught starting in the 1st grade, especially to city people?

While this is a tradegy, it points out the fact that if you will travel into areas where wild life lives,
you chance an encounter with something higher up on the food chain than man.

Having the option to kill that animal for no reason, is not the answer.

Proper training will allow you to spot signs of predators in the area and avoid them.

In 3 generations of family hunting, we never have had to kill an animal that we weren't taking for food.

Man and wild life need to live together. I would worry more about the two legged creatures.

I do worry FAR more about the two-legged creatures.

 

[gunsmith]

grin

Why isn't that being taught starting in the 1st grade, especially to city people?

Answer, it doesn't have electrolytes (to understand rent idiocracy)

HSO, in the op (not update thread) I copied part of the FAQ from Cherokee National Forest, my understanding is only hunters during prescribed hours and season may carry.

I do not see any advocating killing for no reason Nem my friend, just advocating having the tool available to defend your self if one of those very rare attacks do occur.

I do agree that it is more likely to encounter the most feared predator on the planet....human...in which case you probably should have a good firearm!

which would be illegal.

How is it that CA NF land has better gun carry rules then TN?

 

[AStone]

Answer, it doesn't have electrolytes (to understand rent idiocracy)

Thanks for the film recommendation.

Haven't seen it yet. (Curious about how the electrolytes fit in ... )

I do not see any advocating killing for no reason Nem my friend,
just advocating having the tool available to defend your self
if one of those very rare attacks do occur.

G'smith, my friend, I agree.

For the record, I'm not asserting that anyone one is "advocating killing for no reason".

And I also agree that one should have the tools available to defend oneself in those very rare attacks.

I've got several such tools,
ranging from .38 spl and .357 Mag on the small side
to .30-30 and 12 ga (00 and slugs) in the larger size.
(Yes, the .22 LR is here, too, but I'm not anticipating attack by squirrel or rabbit.)

If I go north as far as Yukon or AK, or even N. ID, I'll likely add a .45-70 and/or .454C.

Nope, I'm not into the idea of being eaten.

And I do feel sympathy for the mother who lost her daughter.
That's a tragedy, especially for the child.

All I'm sayin' is, if every one in every region - TN, AK, AZ, Kenya, India, Detroit ... - spent more time studying (and being taught about) the indigenous fauna of an area before going on vacation there, and kept kids under control when in areas where there are, say, primate predators or gangsta's with Keltecs,
then there'd be fewer tragedies like this.

It's not rocket science, it's basic biology and common sense.

As I'm learning in another thread,
whether one is in a parking lot in Seattle or a wilderness in griz country,
self defense requires mental preparedness and situational awareness.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would have to check, but I believe the state has made the National Forest areas of TN into Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs). I know it is true in the Blue Ridge area. Access with firearms in WMA's is pretty strict except during hunting season. According to the officer, you can not legally carry a firearm (concealed or unconcealed) in a WMA except while hunting. That includes hiking, or simply a walk in the woods with your 22 rifle to perhaps do some plinking.

My first thought was... I would be "hunting" feral hogs. But low and behold, you can only shoot them during the hunting seasons on public lands.

My personal view is that the rule "don't ask, don't tell" probably applies in the National Forest and as long as you are discreet, you won't have any problems. But it should not be an issue at all or a rule.

This whole business of legality needs to be changed in Tennessee. I find it overly restrictive. The public lands are there for everyone to enjoy and they are not there just to use during hunting season. Litter and game laws should be able to cover any potential damage associated with plinking or leaving shooting trash lying around on these lands or hunting out of season. I know the litter issue is a big one in Pennsylvania in their Game Lands.

Gunsmith, your label "Gun Free Utopia", is a bit insulting to folks here in Tennessee.

 

[gunsmith]

sorry!

gun free utopia was meant to light a fire of activism because I've been thinking about moving to TN, I want you guys to do the hard work of changing that silly law b4 I get there...no offense meant ...I love TN!

 

[JMusic]

I've carried concealed and openly in WMA lands for years. Many times I have talked with rangers or whatever their called. Not once was the firearm an issue.

Attacks by wild animals the size of a bear or mountain lion are quick. Having a firearm may or may not help you. You do need to learn the woods and avoid ambush sites no matter what you carry.

Jim

 

[22-rimfire]

That is good to hear. I know that when you ask a question from the enforcement branch, you simply get the "law" and they are not open to a discussion on the merits of the law. It bothers me that the TN gov-ner does not support a common sense proposed law regarding fiream confiscation during Katrina-type diasters. For those that live in the area of the WMA's and National Forests (especially the larger ones), it just doesn't seem right that you can not legally carry your 22 rifle, pistol or any firearm for that matter out in the public land woods as long as you are not hunting out of season. You don't get the type of people doing this that are particularily dangerous or destructive (except for litter!!).

Prior to the NICs instant check system implemented after the Brady bill, Tennessee had waiting periods for handgun purchases for years. That is not really that "gun friendly" if you ask me. At gunshows, you paid extra for the local version of the instant check prior to NICs implementation. The regulation on WMA's is not gun friendly and needs to be changed immediately. The state should encourage responsible firearm use on public lands, not hinder it.

 

[Im283]

East TN is for sure bear country, people go to the Smokys for the sole purpose of seeing a bear. (Go to Cades Cove and sit in stopped traffic for a bit). Seems like every year there is a bear report farther north than the previous year.

This poor woman lost a child, some dumb ass gun law was not going to change things.

I do not know first hand the weapon rules for that park but there are many parks and wild life areas you can carry in. If that happened to my grandchild with my wife in charge gun laws would not change anything. That woman did all she could with what she could.

You cannot (CCW or whatever) have a gun in the National Park, that I know for sure.

As for TN beng gun friendly, I dunno, i do know it is better than living in ILLINOIS or CA.


God Bless this State

 

[SoCalShooter]

Stephen Colbert was right.

Immedietly what I thought of when I saw this, great to live in a utopia where you cannot defend yourself from the wildlife. Condolences to the family.

 

[lacoochee]

Im283 in the end the animal was driven off by a man with a gun, perhaps had it been a Redhawk Alaskan .454 there would be a little girl playing in the sun this Spring rather than lying 6 feet under forever in the dark.

By the way had it been my little sister and myself in my Grandmothers care, there would be one dead bear lying in the woods in Tennessee. I pray that someday I will be as good a shot as she is still at 78.

Oh and one last thing, I would have to be dead before one of my children was dragged off without me noticing.

 

[1911JMB]

On the topic of black bears, I've encountered them a couple times, and both times I was armed, but I sure didn't need to be. As soon as they saw me, they took off like their lives depended on it. I guess their lives did depend on it, but not really. Black bears tend to be small little things that just aren't very intimidating, and certainly they aren't aggressive to humans, and the ones I've seen certainly matched that description.

 

[AStone]

The large bears live in ID, MT, BC and AK.