UPS and FedEx, no longer allow intrastate shipping

[RNB65]

you ARE required by law to inform the carrier that you are shipping a firearm

Not if it's intrastate. See post #2.
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[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by PTK:
The manager of the FedEx near where I work stated quite plainly that long arms can be shipped without an issue within the state by their policy, but that handguns need to go overnight (again, by their policy) and firearms of all sorts may be shipped by any method to an FFL holder.

It is clearly stated that all firearms must be shipped Priority Overnight. There is no difference in policy between long guns and handguns.

Take the print-out of their policy and ask him why his interpretation is different than the printed policy and where would you be left standing when you follow his recommendation and then you have to file a claim.

 

[Gator]

The manager of the FedEx near where I work stated quite plainly that long arms can be shipped without an issue within the state by their policy, but that handguns need to go overnight (again, by their policy) and firearms of all sorts may be shipped by any method to an FFL holder.

He should look at FedEx's policy!

 

[PTK]

Well, I suppose that just goes to show that many of these employees just don't know what they're talking about. I'll be sure to use USPS for longarms and FedEx overnight for handguns from now on, just to be sure.

 

[gym]

To those who under stood this thank you, to those who just can't stand to admit that they are mis -informed, or learning disabled I give up. I didn't take the names of the dozen people who I spoke to, because no one is going to give a crap who you speak to, on top of which I was trying to do this while I trade, while putting together a VC deal in Vegas and LA, reviewing a business plan while on with ups, fedex people and I wasted hours, If you do it wrong, then you can explain it to a judge, if you get caught. I recieved mine done the right way, overnight air, intra -state, Fedex, and this is the last time I will try to enlighten some of the harder headed gentlmen in here.When I moved from NY to FL, the best way was Dept to Dept. sent mine to a captain in Jupitor, drove up and he handed me my weapons. that was a long time ago, and laws and policys change, it's the responsibility of the sender to comply. Some guys just don't want to listen. Policy and law are two different things. Long guns and handguns are two different things, Fl and texas are 2 different things, enough. Did I get all of their names, yea sure that's all I have to do, I spend enough time on the phone taking care of other more important things, you want proof call the ATFor FBI.

 

[atblis]

Yeah

The notification thing has come up before. The ATF faq is wrong. They've even admitted as much.

Go read the actual law.

The notification requirement very clearly applies only to interstate/interational, and when not shipping to an FFL/Manufacturer.

Why do you think it's not illegal to ship intrastate to an individual? The ATF/FedGov would love for it to be.

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

 

[MAKOwner]

Fedex/UPS policy changes from day to day depending on who you talk to.

Just sign up for an online FedEx account, fill out the shipping info/declare the value, choose overnight shipping, print up your label, box it up, and drop it off at a ship center. There isn't even a field to list the contents. No questions asked at dropoff.

Just did it two days ago myself (returning my PT111 to Taurus for an extractor replacement).

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by gym
To those who under stood this thank you, to those who just can't stand to admit that they are mis -informed, or learning disabled I give up.

Your last post is hard to follow since you never stated the conclusion that you came to, regarding the information/misinformation that you received from the regional manager. You didn't state how you followed up on that info and if you believe that the regional manager's opinion was correct; thus superseding the printed terms on FedEx's site that are bound by this statement.

These FedEx Express Terms and Conditions, contained in the FedEx Service Guide, supersede all previous terms and conditions, amendments, supplements, and other prior statements concerning the rates and conditions of FedEx Express service to which these terms and conditions apply.

And as far as changing the terms, per location...

Only an officer in the Legal Department of FedEx Corporation may authorize a supplement to, or modification, change or amendment of, the FedEx Service Guide. No other agent or employee of FedEx, its affiliates or subsidiaries, nor any other person or party, is authorized to do so.

You kept speculating to information on "websites", but the only relevant sites are the sites of the carriers with the text of their policy. On your other thread, you stated

Forget what the websites are telling you, it's a crapshoot if you do it and get caught, it's going to pinch. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, just ask anyone who ever got in trouble and said, oh but this guy, or tht website said it was ok.

but you did not reply to what "law" that you were referring to in that post...


If you were concerned that the responses that you received were from the mis-informed, it may be because the original poster wasn't able to clearly state his conclusions.

 

[Flyboy]

...in interstate or foreign commerce...

Just remember, the Supreme Court has held that wheat grown on your own farm for personal use (Wickard) and marijuana grown in your own home for personal use (Raich) constitute "interstate commerce."

I'm just sayin.'

 

[brickeyee]

See section (d)

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 3]
[Revised as of April 1, 2007]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR478.31]

[Page 33]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger
who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition
into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such
common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without
violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge
or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or
receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply
in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond
shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

[33 FR 18555, Dec. 14, 1968. Redesignated at 40 FR 16385, Apr. 15, 1975,
and amended by T.D. ATF-354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF-361, 60
FR 10786, Feb. 27, 1995]

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by brickeyee:
See section (d)

Ok? That is a provision that requires a carrier to require signature... That has no bearing on the notification requirement, especially if you pay for the signature confirmation.

As it is clearly stated, that code only pertains to carriers and the only way for the code to be broken is if the carrier "knowingly" did not require a signature.

 

[SaxonPig]

I have never succeeded in shipping a firearm if they knew that's what it was in the box.

Fed-Ex, UPS and USPS all refused to accept any gun going anywhere for any reason. That's been my experience in three different states at numerous different locations.

"Only a dealer can ship a gun."

"Nobody can send a gun via US Mail."

"We don't ship guns, you have to use UPS."

"We don't ship guns, you have to use Fed-Ex."

"We don't ship guns, you have to use USPS."

I have yet to encounter a single employee at any Post Office or common carrier outlet who knew the law or their own policy.

 

[spencerhut]

All this subterfuge to get around the laws and carrier policies is nonsense.

Who said I'm trying to get around any laws? What I'm trying to do is keep the thieves that work for UPS and FexEx from stealing my property while legally shipping it to the manufacturer for warranty repairs.

 

[RNB65]

I have never succeeded in shipping a firearm if they knew that's what it was in the box. Fed-Ex, UPS and USPS all refused to accept any gun going anywhere for any reason.

Were you at a UPS/FedEx depot or using one of their franchise locations (The UPS Store/FedEx Kinkos)?

UPS Store/FedEx Kinkos are privately owned franchised businesses that pay a fee to use the UPS/FedEx name and are not owned or operated by UPS or FedEx. It's been well documented that these locations will not accept firearm shipments. Firearms must be shipped thru a real UPS/FedEx depot location.

I've never had the least bit of trouble shipping a firearm. I take it down to the local UPS depot, tell the clerk I'm shipping a firearm for repair, and they've never so much as blinked an eye. It's just another box as far as they're concerned.
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[Wayne02]

Just sign up for an online FedEx account, fill out the shipping info/declare the value, choose overnight shipping, print up your label, box it up, and drop it off at a ship center. There isn't even a field to list the contents. No questions asked at dropoff.

What are the fees for a fedex online account?

Can you drop the packages at one of those drop boxes positioned around the community? (assuming it will fit in the drop box of course) I'm not necessarily talking about firearms here, but other miscellaneous stuff that may be sold on ebay and the like.

 

[brentfoto]

I'm a little bit confused, and don't wish to throw the subject of the thread off, but with a cursory view of the federal statute cited above, one would not have to declare to common carrier in INTERSTATE commerce if handgun is going to an FFL (licensed dealer?)?

 

[RNB65]

one would not have to declare to common carrier in INTERSTATE commerce if handgun is going to an FFL (licensed dealer?)?

That's correct although the ATF tries to fool people into believing otherwise. If you read the firearms shipping FAQ on the ATF website, you'll notice that they play word games and carefully omit certain parts of what the federal code actually says.

For example, they carefully omit that you don't have to notify the carrier if the firearm is being shipped to an FFL or if it's being shipped intrastate. That's why it pays to read the actual federal/state laws and not just someone else's carefully worded interpretations.

There's a letter that someone has where they challenged the ATF's stance on shipping firearms to FFL's. The ATF admitted that they're FAQ is incorrect and you don't have to notify the carrier when shipping to an FFL holder. But they've never corrected the FAQ. I'm sure someone at THR can provide a link to the letter or you can find it in some of the older discussion on shipping firearms.

*****

Found it...


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[brentfoto]

So, I should think the internet 'gabble' about it only being the policy of the common carrier to require notification may indeed be correct. If shipping interstate to an FFL or other designated person named in the statute it may be lawful without notification to the common carrier.

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

If shipping interstate to an FFL or other designated person named in the statute it may be lawful without notification to the common carrier.

Of course. It is clearly stated in the Federal code; as you mentioned in your previous post.

 

[fairfax1]

What are the fees for a fedex online account?

Can you drop the packages at one of those drop boxes positioned around the community? (assuming it will fit in the drop box of course) I'm not necessarily talking about firearms here, but other miscellaneous stuff that may be sold on ebay and the like.

I have a fedex account, the account is free. It fact you will probably get a better rate with Internet shipping (when you print the air bill yourself) than at the counter at Fedex-Kinkos. If you or your family is affiliated with the military and is a USAA member, they have a great discount program with Fedex (up to 38% off).

Yes, you can drop pre-paid packages off at the drop boxes. I drop all my Ebay packages in the drop box by next to my house and have never had a problem.

 

[gym]

I think that what you are, legaly allowed to do or not do, is differen't than what you can do, would do, or did. And I think that this topic can go on forever, and we still won't be able to get everyone to agree or be sure which is correct. If you use common sense instead of anything else, you will arrive at the right decision for your own purpose. Of course you can't ship interstate, without both parties having an FFL, or a manufacturer. Otherwise Drug dealers, and criminals in general, would buy guns in states which require little or no restrictions. Shipping guns between 2 permit holders in the same state, should be legal to do, because, why shouldn't it be. But if I own the company that ships the gun, I can make policy based on my own rules. Until someone takes me , {me bieng the shipping company, ie. Fedex Ups, etc}, to court and challenges my policy. That is the same as a supermarket like Winn Dixie, who had a sign on the front door in Boca Raton Florida, that said, "no firearms permitted in this store", why and how can that be legal, if you have a license from the state that says you are allowed, to carry a concealed weapon, who is Winn Dixie, to tell you that you can't. After about a year the sign was removed. I imagine that some lawyer got pissed, and took them to court, or someone looked at the policy who worked for the company and said this isn't legal, nor is it "any of our business", What if a clerk got killed or a costomer? the perpetraitor may have been stoped, if some guy or gal, had thier gun, which they were told that they couldn't bring in the store. I think it's just one of those dammed if you do, dammed if you don't things.

 

[brentfoto]

At least one thing that I take issue with-it does not have to be FFL to FFL interstate. It must be shipped to an FFL. A non-licensed person can lawfully send a gun through a common carrier direct to a FFL.

Also, private property means private. The fact it is frequented by and open to the public make take it out of private domain. But, generally, a landowner has a right to do as he sees fit with his property, and those who violate his policy become trespassers.

 

[brickeyee]

"Ok? That is a provision that requires a carrier to require signature... That has no bearing on the notification requirement, especially if you pay for the signature confirmation."

Every carrier has a company policy requiring notification to conform to this portion.
Every one of them has had there attorneys look at this and believes they are required to know if the package contains a firearm.

You are freely invited to take it up with the shippers attorneys.

"As it is clearly stated, that code only pertains to carriers and the only way for the code to be broken is if the carrier "knowingly" did not require a signature."

The "knowingly" clause simply means the carrier cannot be prosecuted if the shipper fails to notify them.

The carriers are PROHIBITED from marking the outside of ANY package that contains a firearm to identify it.
The problem with handguns is that they are compact enough in a typical gun case for shipping to be easily identified anyway.

I ship in a book box (1.5 cubic feet). The container no longer appears heavy for its size, and is not going to be easily concealed.

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by gym:
Of course you can't ship interstate, without both parties having an FFL, or a manufacturer. Otherwise Drug dealers, and criminals in general, would buy guns in states which require little or no restrictions.

???
I hope that you just misstated that; or else you didn't read anything in your threads...
Only the receiving end needs to be an FFL. I ship handguns all the time to smiths and manufacturers and I do not have an FFL.

Posted by brickeyee:
Every carrier has a company policy requiring notification to conform to this portion.
Every one of them has had there attorneys look at this and believes they are required to know if the package contains a firearm.

You are freely invited to take it up with the shippers attorneys.

That section of code pertains to the carrier and the only way that an infraction can take place is for the carrier to knowingly ship without sig verification... Noting that an individual does can even pertain to that section of the code, that is why the text of the code is crafted that way.

The notification requirement, or lack there of, is specifically stated in paragraph "a".

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

Ship what you want, how you want it, just label it properly and leave it for them to gripe about later.

If the law allows me to ship a weapon a certain way, I will ship it that way, a no punk manager at a mismanaged UPS depot will tell me otherwise. Unless federal law requires you to verbally say to him "there is a firearm in this package" simply write it in a box, or quietly write some postal code on the box (as per legal -written law- regulations) and let their corporate policies or stupid ideas conceived by local management, go hang.

You are only bound by statutory law, and even then it is sketchy...

As a matter of principle and ideology I do not acknowledge that I am bound by statutory law, since I never consented to it and since I am a sovereign citizen of my state and my state citizenship comes before my citizenship to the so-called nation known as the USA, which is really an artificial creation that has ceased to be a legitimate centralized authority and lacks the moral authority to pass laws.

However, as a matter of avoiding confrontations with LEOs that would either end in many of their deaths and then my death/imprisonment, my death, or my imprisonment, I suck it up, humor them, and obey their petty statutes, even though they are almost entirely arbitrary and without basis in morality or necessity.


If the law allows you to do something but some company is cautious about it, take full advantage of the law and do it. Find as many loopholes in the laws and corporate policies as you can, and try to regain and exercise as many of your liberties as you can. Don't cross the lines but don't feel the need to go out of your way to be a model John Q citizen who smiles and nods when the elites walk by you.