US Army looking for new pistol?

[KriegHund]

Cause its the internet.

Anywho

So the troops should spray and pray? The capacity of a magazine does not mean jack, if the caliber being used has a tough time putting down, the people being shot at. 3 rounds(.45) vs 10(9mm) rounds fired. I'll take the 3 every time. 8 round magaizines, are what I use in my 1911's. The Sig P220 also uses 8 rounds magazines. Many people put their faith in the P220, day in and day out. With only 8 rounds, it has managed to save more than a few of them.

By that thinking we should be carrying old bolt actions, or perhaps garands?
I mean, after all, 8 rounds is enough if you fire accuratly?

And something tell me that if it takes 10 rounds to put down someone youve got more issues than your caliber.
Just cause it works doenst mean its the best.



The SOCOM has 12 or 10 round magazine capacity and is still .45 ACP. I have no problem with the round. My point was there are better pistols out there- just becuase we used it for 80 years doesnt mean its the best. We used muskets for decades....

http://www.hkpro.com/socom.htm

Seems like that would make a fine pistol. However,it is a very large pistol.

You cant have it all, knock down power, capacity, size, weight....

*Edit*

For that matter, i believe that a .40 cal (or even better 10mm) USP would make an excellent sidearm.

As for the external hammer- Always just kinda bugged me, to see it sticking out there. Seems like it might break if dropped- not to say it would, just gives me that impression.

 

[Blacklabman]

Cause its the internet.

Anywho



By that thinking we should be carrying old bolt actions, or perhaps garands?
I mean, after all, 8 rounds is enough to fire accuratly?

And something tell me that if it takes 10 rounds to put down someone youve got more issues than you caliber.
Just cause it works doenst mean its the best.



The SOCOM has 12 or 10 round magazine capacity and is still .45 ACP. I have no problem with the round. My point was there are better pistols out there- just becuase we used it for 80 years doesnt mean its the best. We used muskets for decades....

Yes..There are other pistols out there. My point is this. I do not know how anyone cannot talk about a weapons platform, when they have no experience with it.
So you dont think that people in combat, can soak up 10 rounds of well placed 9mm ball, before going down for keeps? Well now, my eyes must have deceived me. I will bow out to your vastly superior" Real World" Knowledge.

 

[KriegHund]

Bow deeper, blacklabman....



If a guys hopped up on all sorts of meph and such, sure, he'll soak up 10 9mm rounds.

But if thatst he case, he'll probably be able to soak up 10 .45 rounds....If they all hit in the arms and the gut.
A 9mm will kill you just as dead as 1 .45 if it hits you in the head.\

Besides, im not trying to argue .45 vs 9mm! Im trying to argue that there are better guns than the 1911. Nor am i saying the 1911 isnt good- im just saying there are better.

Is the beretta perfect? NO. Is it better than the 1911? Possibly not! Thats not the point.

 

[Blacklabman]

Bow deeper, blacklabman....



If a guys hopped up on all sorts of meph and such, sure, he'll soak up 10 9mm rounds.

But if thatst he case, he'll probably be able to soak up 10 .45 rounds....If they all hit in the arms and the gut.
A 9mm will kill you just as dead as 1 .45 if it hits you in the head.\

Besides, im not trying to argue .45 vs 9mm! Im trying to argue that there are better guns than the 1911. Nor am i saying the 1911 isnt good- im just saying there are better.

Is the beretta perfect? NO. Is it better than the 1911? Possibly not! Thats not the point.

Your vast first hand/firefight surviving experience(s) with the calibers and weapons platforms simply overwhelm's me.
You have """"NO"""" experience with the 1911, but you make comments about it?
What pure BS.
I see now why people shy away from, and laugh at the stuff posted on internet forums. The "net" is a place place for children with NO Real Life and/or First hand Knowledge to spew drivel.

 

[DRZinn]

The SOCOM has 12 or 10 round magazine capacity and is still .45 ACP.

It's also way too big for average hands.

The round is great, but there is a capacity issue. I would argue that you simple train for faster magazine changes and make your hits count, and capacity won't be an issue.

However, in the reality that is today's military, where they don't train nearly enough with any of their weapon systems, you could probably convince my that a higher capacity is better, even if they don't do as much damage. Then I might go with .40 S&W.

But you can't have a double-stack of .45 and expect it to work for everyone.

 

[Grunt]

No, I agree the 1911 is an excellent handgun and personally, I would like to see it adopted if everybody was as up to speed on firearms as those that come here to these boards. However, as I said in my first post, with the urbanization of America, fewer and fewer people coming into the military that already know how to shoot and safetly handle a firearm, I think for general issue, the 1911 is not a good choice mainly from a safety standpoint. Give us more money for more ammunition and a FAR better training program (the Air Force is a FAR cry away from my days in the Marines when it comes to marksmanship training) where you are getting something more than a 1-day class every 3 years and then I may change my mind on the 1911 being a general issue handgun again. However, with the current levels of training and the current quality of firearms knowledge of the average military shooter, I'm going to stand by my guns and say no, no Glocks or 1911s for general issue.

 

[KriegHund]

Your vast first hand/firefight surviving experience(s) with the calibers and weapons platforms simply overwhelm's me.
You have """"NO"""" experience with the 1911, but you make comments about it?
What pure BS.
I see now why people shy away from, and laugh at the stuff posted on internet forums. The "net" is a place place for children with NO Real Life and/or First hand Knowledge to spew drivel.

Aside from the fact that that seems to be your only counter argument....

Nope, i dont have any first hand knowledge. I assume you do.

But merely because I have no expereience does not mean that i cant use my eyes to see and to read that which is set before me.

 

[BluesBear]

But merely because I have no expereience does not mean that i cant use my eyes to see and to read that which is set before me.

Are those the same eyes that seem to be incapable of noticing the typo, the misspelling and the gobbledygook syntax which is set before us in your signature?
The past shows us all we need to know. Specificly, if even one lawa gainst our rights is enecated and peaceably taken, then it shall not be long before all rights are taken by 'law'- peaceably or no.

 

[Rob96]

Bow deeper, blacklabman....



If a guys hopped up on all sorts of meph and such, sure, he'll soak up 10 9mm rounds.

But if thatst he case, he'll probably be able to soak up 10 .45 rounds....If they all hit in the arms and the gut.
A 9mm will kill you just as dead as 1 .45 if it hits you in the head.\

Besides, im not trying to argue .45 vs 9mm! Im trying to argue that there are better guns than the 1911. Nor am i saying the 1911 isnt good- im just saying there are better.

Is the beretta perfect? NO. Is it better than the 1911? Possibly not! Thats not the point.

What the hell are you trying to say????? Look kid, you need to sit, read and learn. You are trying to offer an opinion, but it is ill informed. Until you get experience under your belt with different calibers and platforms, stay away from offering input about them. And when you do post, try to make sense.

 

[Rob96]

Cause its the internet.

Anywho



By that thinking we should be carrying old bolt actions, or perhaps garands?
I mean, after all, 8 rounds is enough if you fire accuratly?

And something tell me that if it takes 10 rounds to put down someone youve got more issues than your caliber.
Just cause it works doenst mean its the best.



The SOCOM has 12 or 10 round magazine capacity and is still .45 ACP. I have no problem with the round. My point was there are better pistols out there- just becuase we used it for 80 years doesnt mean its the best. We used muskets for decades....

http://www.hkpro.com/socom.htm

Seems like that would make a fine pistol. However,it is a very large pistol.

You cant have it all, knock down power, capacity, size, weight....

*Edit*

For that matter, i believe that a .40 cal (or even better 10mm) USP would make an excellent sidearm.

As for the external hammer- Always just kinda bugged me, to see it sticking out there. Seems like it might break if dropped- not to say it would, just gives me that impression.

Again, no formal training or experience. Stay off of the boards, if you are going to post utter non-sense.

 

[Jeff White]

Blacklabman said;

I see now why people shy away from, and laugh at the stuff posted on internet forums. The "net" is a place place for children with NO Real Life and/or First hand Knowledge to spew drivel.

The internet has proved my theory that most American males are born believing they came out of the womb knowing all there is to know about firearms, gunfighting, hand to hand combat, small unit tactics, automibile design, high speed emergency and evasive driving and making love. Unfortunately, many of them never learn how much they don't know....

Jeff

 

[Rob96]

Blacklabman said;



The internet has proved my theory that most American males are born believing they came out of the womb knowing all there is to know about firearms, gunfighting, hand to hand combat, small unit tactics, automibile design, high speed emergency and evasive driving and making love. Unfortunately, many of them never learn how much they don't know....

Jeff

Don't forget we also know about weightlifting and carving a turkey.

 

[Quinch]

The reason the M92 was adopted:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/aviano.htm

 

[BrokenArrow]

A little more to it than just Aviano. Some think the GLCM (Ground Launched Cruise Missile) base we wanted in Comiso, Sicily was even more important. Of course, nobody can prove any of that...

Fact is the Beretta did as well/better than the SIG in the M9 tests. None of the Berettas broke any parts during testing, two of the SIGs cracked frames under 7,000 rounds. The Beretta was slightly more reliable than the SIG in the wet/dry mud tests (both a little less reliable than the 1911). The Beretta's "best and final offer" bid price per pistol was higher than SIGs, but their total package price of pistols and mags was lower.

Latest on the Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System:

ODA
U.S. Special Operations Command
Headquarters Procurement Division
10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System
Responses to Industry Questions of "Draft" RFP 01, Responses to Industry
Questions of 01
http://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/SOAL-KB/H92222-05-R-0017/listing.html

Some highlights:

3. JCP Schedule: Can you please provide the schedule for JCP to include
expected dates of: Final RFP Release, Proposal Response Deadline, Expected
Contract Award Date. Projected First Delivery Order date and Quantities
Funding.

Answer: Final RFP Release: Projected in January 2006
Proposal Response Deadline: Projected in March 2006
Expected Contract Award Date: Projected in 4Q FY06.

39. In RFP Technical Evaluation, (Factor 3 Management) Section 4.1.3.2, the
draft request for proposals requests a plan for domestic transition of
production "if applicable", but the request for proposals does not actually
require domestic production or a transition to domestic production if
production is currently overseas. For this reason, I had assumed that the
domestic transition of production was only applicable if the bidder chose to
do so, but that there is no requirement to transition to domestic production
and, accordingly, no negative evaluation will be given to a proposal that
retains production outside the U.S. Is this understanding correct?

Answer: Your proposal will be evaluated in accordance with the Buy American
Act and Balance of Payments Program provisions which will be included in the
solicitation. This clause implements the Buy American Act (41 U.S.C.
Section 10a-d).

45. Under Section 3.2.3 (Service Life) of the draft Performance
Specification, is a receiver still considered "usable" if it can still be
used but has visible cracks or other signs of wear, or is some other
definition of "usable" contemplated and, if so, what is that definition?

Answer: If the receiver shows signs of wear or visible cracks which have no
impact on the safe operation of the pistol, it is considered usable.

51. Item 3.4.1 Action. Will all Striker Fired Actions be considered Double
Action Only regardless of what the striker does during the action of pulling
the trigger? Is there any Double Action definition as to what makes it a DA
or DA pull? How will Double Action be defined?

Answer: The specification will be changed to state: DA/SA is defined as an
action that sets and releases the sear with the first pull of the trigger,
with subsequent shots being single action, only releasing the sear from a
preset position, to fire the weapon. DAO/ Striker Fire is defined as an
action that sets and released the sear with every pull of the trigger. Note:
Any Striker Fire action that fully sets the sear will be considered DA/SA.

63. What do you mean by "Modular Action" and what will be required to for
it to be considered changed. Item 4.4.1 states that the JCP must be able to
be able to be changed from DAO to DA/SA, and back. If this is the case, how
does the striker fired guns fall into this category? If the gun must be
reconfigured from "Striker-Fired Action" which is considered DAO to a DA/SA
gun which requires both a cocking action trigger pull and a pre-cocked
action trigger pull as well as a de-cocking lever and external safety lever.
I would appreciate some clarification on this matter.

Answer: Modular means that the action on the pistol can be changed at the
unit level without modification to the weapon's major assemblies from DAO to
DA/SA, or DA/SA to DAO and back.

Another fact is the 1911 can still run w the best, and beat most, when it comes to accuracy, durability, and reliability under adverse conditions. The original SOF JCP specs allowed SAO (single action only) pistols to compete. They were dropped when the JCP and FHS (Future Handgun System) programs were combined. We were _this_ close to getting 1911s back for everybody. I suspect even after the JCP contract is awarded, some special folks will still find a way to get the 1911s they really want...

 

[Rob96]

I am predicting the HK45, will be the winner. I wonder if we will find out who all is submitting.

 

[DRZinn]

If the receiver shows signs of wear or visible cracks which have no impact on the safe operation of the pistol, it is considered usable.

Is that even possible??

 

[carebear]

DocZinn,

A cracked dust cover is a nonessential part of a receiver which needent necessarily deadline a pistol as "unsafe". Crack on the grip portion of the frame may be another.

As long as the weapon isn't going to break in such a way as to actually fail to function and/or cause harm to the shooter.

 

[NMshooter]

Wow, this thread is still going...

So, be honest, does the answer to the question in the thread title really matter?

I own pistols that I like for how I can make them perform, not how others might be able to, in theory, maybe in some movie...

 

[DRZinn]

A cracked dust cover

Touché. I read receiver and automatically pictured the chamber...

 

[carebear]

I think it's the rifle mentality kicking in.

 

[BrokenArrow]

That clarification goes all the way back to the M9 trials... the S&W pistols were judged as failing the durability tests due to cracked frames, even though they fired all the required number of rounds and met the reliability standard too.

Some 1911s will crack the frame just above the cutout where the slide stop goes through. They still work fine. Colt just removed that piece from the 10mm models.

Glocks will often show slide peening where the locking block hits them; have seen some that looked really bad, like they were whacked w a chisel, but they still worked fine.

Have seen XDs break the ejector, chamber loaded indicator, and the cocking indicator and still keep working fine.

Some wear and breakage matters, some does not?

 

[DRZinn]

It's the rifleman mentality kicking in. Even though I spent more time as a machinegunner.

 

[Rob96]

That clarification goes all the way back to the M9 trials... the S&W pistols were judged as failing the durability tests due to cracked frames, even though they fired all the required number of rounds and met the reliability standard too.

Some 1911s will crack the frame just above the cutout where the slide stop goes through. They still work fine. Colt just removed that piece from the 10mm models.

Glocks will often show slide peening where the locking block hits them; have seen some that looked really bad, like they were whacked w a chisel, but they still worked fine.

Have seen XDs break the ejector, chamber loaded indicator, and the cocking indicator and still keep working fine.

Some wear and breakage matters, some does not?

Sounds like a good set up for the Ruger.

 

[kennyboy]

The pistol is the H&K MK 23. The suppressor is a Knight suppressor made by colt. Had any of you researched this a little, you would have discovered this. The .45 is better than the 9mm, .40, and all the smaller pistol cartridges. I always say that you can't argue with big holes. Also, Delta Force founder Charlie A. Beckwith loved the .45. In his book he said that there is no better cartridge-tremendous stopping power and, unlike 9mm's, one usually needs not worry about the round passing through and hitting bystanders such as hostages.

 

[Jeff White]

kennyboy,
The pistol is not the HK23. The HK23 has been in the system for years. It's not used much because it is so big and heavy. The program under discussion is supposed to find a new candidate pistol.

COL Beckwith was one of the finest soldiers our nation ever produced. That doesn't make him an expert on wound ballistics though.

All of us, who are not limited by the ammuntion restrictions set out in the Hague Conventions are adequately armed with any reliable handgun in calber .38 special of larger. If you are restricted to ball ammunition, then .45 acp provides the greatest terminal effects on target.

Jeff