US Army looking for new pistol?

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Why not the 40 S&W?

Besides the fact that our police and sheriff departments and the state patrol uses .45acp
here is this item from The Firling Line
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156659&page=2&pp=40
Originally, the 10 mm was supposed to be the savior round for law enforcement. It was bigger and faster than the 9mm and it was faster and had higher energy than a 45 ACP. The "problems" of the 9mm and the 45 were addressed and solved with one round. Glory be!
But the mignions of PC felt that the 10mm was too powerful, too fast, too inhumane (actually heard a lady judge say that in court), too vulnerable to law suits and so, the 40 S&W was born!
I have nothing against the 40. It is what it is. But it is largely a political answer to a series of questions that should never have been raised in the first place. With the improvement in 9mm ammo the power gap between it and the 40 has significantly lessened. Of course 45 and 10mm are also what they always were and continue to be. So, it seems to me, that the 40 is a rather redundant round. The 40 has more recoil than the 9mm, is also a more expensive round, doesn't have the bullet weight of the 45 and lacks the velocity of the 10mm. I have seen quite a few local PD's drop the 40 in favor of 9's and 45's though the 10 mm seems to remain unpopular with law enforcment in our part of the world. The 40 was, and remains, a compromise round. Good shooting
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I'm a 10mm fan, and it won't be 10mm.

I'm sure you could get the guys at the sharp end of the stick to qualify on 10mm as well as 9mm, but the rest of the services would "pull a FBI" and beg for it to be downloaded, at which point you might as well have gone with .40 S&W or kept 9mm.

If all you care about is armor penetration, which they probably shouldn't in a handgun when fighting guys wearing bed sheets instead of Kevlar, they'd go with one of those tiny PDW calibers like 5.7mm. If you just care about organic trauma with FMJ, a flat-point .45 ACP is about as good as anyone is going to be able to cope with. A 10mm puts you out to 100+ yards with non-trivial ballistics, but that is really a secondary consideration for what is meant to be a bad-breath-range weapon. It isn't like the military has any shortage of rifles to engage people at longer range.

If the military is going with a new gun/caliber combo anyway, a single-stack .45 or a double-stack but not overly fat .40 S&W would be more likely.
 
OLE Meth head in West Texas decided he what to Shoot it out with the Deputy sheriff who came to arrest him and the BG was hit once in the side with a .40cal 180g Sxt. Even though it did not kill him it did take the fight out of him with one shot. BTW the BG can not longer use his lower half of his body. .40 cal works just fine with solid hits.
 
So does a mm 9 or a .22lr for that matter.

Shot placement is key. If you are going to plug them in a vital zone almost any caliber will do. However if you are going for center of mass like you are trained to (with what ever little training the did give you on the pistol, the average USAF officers training with the M9 is basicly qulifying with it at field training.) you might need something with a little more punch. Or a rifle for that matter....
 
Why not the 40 S&W?
Besides the fact that our police and sheriff departments and the state patrol uses .45acp
here is this item from The Firling Line
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums...59&page=2&pp=40
Click to expand...

Okay, I read through that whole micturating contest from TFL, but nowhere did it provide a cite to support your earlier claim:
They got the 40short & weak which police depts admit is not enough.
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Did your police/sheriff dept. switch to the .45 from the .40? If so, what specific failures to perform led to that decision?
 
When military ball ammo is used .45acp is king.
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Honestly, if they are worried about performance, why don't they just adopt EFMJs for military use? They are legal under the Hague Accords and would at least boost weapon effectiveness a little.
 
...why don't they just adopt EFMJs for military use? They are legal under the Hague Accords...
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No they are not.

And while we usually honor the Hague Accords the US is not a signator to them. And since neither are any of those we are currently in conflict with, they do not apply anyway.
 
Best military pistol caliber?

Can we agree that pistol caliber carbines pack more punch or knockdown power, or killing ability than the same caliber pistols?
Yes?
Can we agree that only the biggest or hottest magnum pistol calibers approaches the .223 rifle cartridge -- such as Remington's ballistics which put the .223 and 44 magnum both about equal in fpe at 200 yards though they are anything but equal when the .44 is 4 times the mass of the .223 and the .223 is traveling twice as fast. Which would you rather get hit with or depend on to stop an adversary determined to kill you?

But given the usual selections from semi-auto, other than 10mm,
I certainly do agree with the following:

.223, hands down. I l ike the UMP in .40- the ones I've fired were accurate, reliable, and very controllable. But going in harm's way I'd take a properly set up M4 over one any day.
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=131&t=319868

I’ll take the 223 carbines over the pistol caliber carbines any day.
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http://www.policemag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=400

Yet we've been hearing reports, too many reports, that the .223 is not enough knockdown, stopping or killing power. Ahhh, I believe a pistol that has to have that power in the crunch should be as much pistol as a soldier can handle -- 9mm or 10mm-lite for small people and full house 10mm for stouter soldiers.
Here is an interesting, though hard to believe discussion.
http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/321147-1.html

BTW
Joe, in the quote that I quoted above was this statement
I have seen quite a few local PD's drop the 40 in favor of 9's and 45's
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Ours skipped from the 9mm past the .40 to the .45 (it sometimes is good being beind the fad curve, you can learn from others experience).
 
Ahhh, I believe a pistol that has to have that power in the crunch should be as much pistol as a soldier can handle -- 9mm or 10mm-lite for small people and full house 10mm for stouter soldiers.
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Ours skipped from the 9mm past the .40 to the .45 (it sometimes is good being beind the fad curve, you can learn from others experience).
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So why doesnt your dept issue 10mm pistols?
 
10mm pistols issued?

Our departments, like many others, don't issue 10mm because
1) the department is too conservative
2) worried about liability of being accused of using too much force
(why the 10 mm, did you want to kill the subject?)
3) for one dept., SIG doesn't make a 10mm (yet?)
4 ) both depts need female officers for dealing with female subjects
and the female officers can't/won't handle full house 10mm loads
5) standardization -- can't have guys with 10mm and gals with 45acp
 
You pretty much gave 4 out of 5 reasons why the Army wont issue 10mm and is much more likely to re-issue .45. Thanks.
 
If the US Military continues to adhere to the no-JHP rule, then I'd say go with a .40. More rounds create more holes that bleed more.

If they do adopt JHP rounds, then I'd still go with .40 caliber bullet. The only problem I see with expanding rounds is lack of hard target penetration.

The 1911 is retired and should stay that way. Lets get a modern, double stack auto loader in a potent caliber.

10mm would be my first choice, but they'd be wiser to go with .40 to get a smaller grip.

I think a Ruger in 10mm would be ideal with .40S&W as the more likely candidate. Cheap, domestically produced and reliable. Built like a tank too.
Maybe the new KP345. but chambered in 10mm
 
5) standardization -- can't have guys with 10mm and gals with 45acp
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Now THAT is a prime example of Stinkin' Thinkin'â„¢!

Police departments should let each individual carry what they can shoot the best. Within certain parameters of course.

This is the 21st century for Pete's sake. Let's finally bury that "we all need to carry the same ammo in case one of our fellow officers runs out" mentality.

POPPYCOCK!

If you wasted all of your ammo and STILL haven't stopped the threat I sure ain't giving you any of my ammo!


Of course this is diametrically opposite to what should be done in a military organization.
 
In no particular order:

I look forward to the various .45acp chambered pistols which are rolling out.

I also look forward to the various .40 and 9mm offerings which will likely come along with the .45s.

.40s fill more holsters in American law enforcement than any other chambering.

American LEOs are by in large happy with the performace of the .40, which is a contributing factor to the immediately preceding point.

We all benefit from competition and developement. Here's to more of it.
 
armoredman said:
I don't know, maybe a CZ75 SP01 DAO in 40SW might fit the bill completely. Just a random thought....no one here would agree, I am sure.
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I could agree for it as a second choice. First choice- 1911.
 
bearmgc said:
I could agree for it as a second choice. First choice- 1911.
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Maybe a double stack version, but if I'm not clearing rooms or other high-speed trash I'm only firing the pistol because the rifle is down, empty or one of my arms is out of the fight.

In that case I want effective power balanced by high in-gun round count to minimize mag changes.

Think worst case "alone against a horde of skinnies." To have even a hope of breaking/suppressing a wave of bodies so I can break contact I'm going to need to drop the whole front rank, that means more than 8+1 on tap with a mag change.

In my view, actually using a handgun in war means my rifle is not an option and tS has hit tF. That's when you gain time and distance with volume of fire/momentary fire superiority. I want more rounds on tap for that. Plus, for space and weight reasons I'd rather carry fewer larger mags.
 
Ummm, didn't they already settle on the Ruger .45? Seems to me I remember reading that they ordered 500,000 or so from Ruger.
 
Did it ever occur to you that they ordered those Berettas because we are recruiting 70,000 recruits every year or so, and a large quantity of Berettas are wearing out.

PS those Rugers were ordered for Iraqi police/security guys. Only the best for them!
 
ghost squire said:
Did it ever occur to you that they ordered those Berettas because we are recruiting 70,000 recruits every year or so, and a large quantity of Berettas are wearing out.

PS those Rugers were ordered for Iraqi police/security guys. Only the best for them!
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OH yeah I'm certian thet they wanna replace the aging m9 pistols they currently have with 70,000 new units cause they wanna adopt a completely new system in a couple of years. GEE WIZ HOW DID I MISS THAT! Why is it that when someone buys a .45 Abyssmal Chest Penatrator handgun All common sense flys out the window.:evil:
 
When the military is ready to adopt a new sidearm they will most likely stay with the 9mm. Since it is an international standard, and ammo is common to most places in the world. Plus it is cheap to shoot.
Special forces will always use what is prudent for their mission. I doubt the military will go back to the .45 1911, since it would cost a foutune to resupply the military with new ammo. It more likley they would either stay with Beratta or go with an HK, Sig Arms, or FN since they are the other large gun suppliers to the Military. The M9 is also the sidearm of the French Military.
I have read on the net, maybe should be taken with a grain of salt, that the M9 Beratta is based on the German P-38, with a full barrel shroud. Also I have read the military mandates decockers on their sidearms, for the time being Glock is out of the question.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg07-e.htm

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=378

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_92F/FS
 
I'm certian thet they wanna replace the aging m9 pistols they currently have with 70,000 new units cause they wanna adopt a completely new system in a couple of years.
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Yup, what else are they going to do dummy? Just stop issuing pistols until the new ones are manufactured? Even after the new pistols are adopted it will still be years before there are enough of them. We to this day have 1911s and .38 revolvers in our armory. And .38s were widely used in Vietnam, as were M1 carbines and Thompson SMGs.

Those Berettas will be in our armory probably for 20 more years, after we adopt the new .45.
 
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