USA SIGs quality not as good as in the past?

[seed]

Thanks for getting back to me so quick! Anyway, this thread and others like it here and elsewhere have made me start looking for 90's era Sigs. I already have a '94 P229, but know of another 90's P229 that is selling for $550. Seems like a real good deal and there are other Sig deals I see more than rarely. In my opinion, getting a 90's era Sig for a low price is one of the best deals going at this particular point in time. I just have a hard time justifying getting another P229.

A couple more questions: how can you tell when the rail wear has gone through the anodizing? I would assume it is when you don't see black anymore. But if this is the case, then wear through the anodizing is a common problem from what I have seen.

And when I got my Sig way back when (second gun I ever bought), .40 ammo was generally not as hot as you can find easily today. Do you recommend a heavier spring to better handle the loads of today? Are modern day Sigs sprung heavier?

 

[rellascout]

Used Sigs period are a great deal. I have bought most of my Sig collection used. I own or have owned Sig P228s/ P226s (Tactical/Navy/Standard)/P220s (Standard/SAS DAK), P250 9mm, Gen 1 GSR/P239/P229 40S&W/ P225/ P245 you get the picture and I think maybe 2 of them were bought NIB. Most of my Sigs have been W.German or German vintages. As a matter of personal preference I prefer them.

IMHO a Sig showing some gold/sliver on the rails where the bluing or nitron has come off the frame is not a matter of concern. As I said most Sigs will show some wear upon initial shooting.

This is a good read on frame rail wear on Sig pistols... http://grayguns.com/category/articles-news/page/2/

When you get to dull silver is where you can run into issues.

 

[seed]

Thanks. I will read that. And do you know of a good place to go to read a detailed description about all the various changes to the 22X series over the years?...the upgrades/updates (generations?) up to and including the Cohen-era deterioration?

 

[rellascout]

Thanks. I will read that. And do you know of a good place to go to read a detailed description about all the various changes to the 22X series over the years?...the upgrades/updates (generations?) up to and including the Cohen-era deterioration?

Not really. There is a lot it piecemeal on the Sig forum but Mike Packwood who owns it removes a lot of content. He white washes it because of his "relationship" with Sig.

Its not that new Sigs are bad its just that there is a different mindset running the company.

Take the Sig Pro SP2022 for example. Rock solid all German made gun which was imported in small overrun quantities. They sold cheap. Right around $450. Then Cohen saw an opportunity and made a US version. Selling for $400 with lots of short cuts. Now you see reports like this:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/9650035042

21 stove pipes 4 failure to ejects and 1 failure to feed in 50 rounds. People are now recommending 500 rounds of hot 124 gr rounds. I hope this is just a single lemon not the anomaly.

 

[MCMXI]

do you know of a good place to go to read a detailed description about all the various changes to the 22X series over the years?...the upgrades/updates (generations?) up to and including the Cohen-era deterioration?

I'm still not buying this as an across the board generalization. In many ways I agree with some of rellascout's comments such as SIG offering too many models and some models that aren't very good such as the P238 which seems to be hit and miss. But when it comes to the P220 series, they're still excellent pistols. I like the stainless slides and the Nitron finish, I don't have any problem with the external extractor, the triggers are better than they've ever been, the rails are functional, they're still accurate and they're still reliable. The only unknown to me are the small number of MIM parts currently being used. I haven't heard of many (if any) MIM failures in the P220s. I've said this a number of times but I honestly couldn't be happier with the P220 Combat and Carry that I bought last year and I'm not new to SIGs. I have quite a few handguns, but the Combat and Carry and my "go to" pistols if the SHTF. SIG is still working for me ... certain models anyway.

 

[seed]

Are the newer Sigs sprung with heavier recoil springs? And do they still use the multi-coil springs, like on my P229? What are the weight-ratings then and now? Interestingly, my relatively same-era (1990's) P239 has a flat coil spring with plastic rod.

 

[rellascout]

Are the newer Sigs sprung with heavier recoil springs? And do they still use the multi-coil springs, like on my P229? What are the weight-ratings then and now? Interestingly, my relatively same-era (1990's) P239 has a flat coil spring with plastic rod.

It depends on the gun. P226 9mm still come with the 3 coil. Others are flat... Each model caliber is different. IIRC

 

[JQP]

When I went to sell my circa-2004 Sig P239, with W. German made frame, I was swamped with immediate requests to buy it.

Gun shop owners were even contacting me and offering full asking price.

There is definitely something to this desire.

 

[MCMXI]

Are the newer Sigs sprung with heavier recoil springs? And do they still use the multi-coil springs, like on my P229? What are the weight-ratings then and now? Interestingly, my relatively same-era (1990's) P239 has a flat coil spring with plastic rod.

P220 springs are still multi-coil and newer P220s with stainless steel slides ship with red 16lb springs. Green 20-22lb springs are available for older P220s with stamped steel slides. The strange thing to me is why did SIG change the spring rate for the older P220s? My guess is that they realized that the frames were getting beaten up with that light spring and light slide. As the photo below shows, my '92 P220 and '04 P220 both came with green springs that aren't anywhere near as stiff as the new green springs. The older green springs are around 16lb. I have a P220 Combat that comes with a phosphated 16lb spring so the red indicator isn't visible.

I bought a P239 SAS Gen 2 last year. It came with a flat coil spring and some kind of pot metal spring guide rod which I replaced with a steel one.

 

[MCMXI]

P220 springs are still multi-coil and newer P220s with stainless steel slides ship with red 16lb springs.

I'm quoting myself but I wanted to add that I based this comment on a new P220 Combat and a new P220 Carry, both bought last year. The Carry definitely has a red 16lb spring. The Combat's spring is the same length as the Carry spring and it's significantly softer than the new green springs that I recently installed in the '92 and '04 P220s. As I mentioned, the Combat spring is phospated so it's black with no obvious color on it. If anyone has a newer P220 (non Carry or Compact version) and can confirm the color of the factory spring it'd be helpful.

 

[JustinL]

Despite owning several Sigs I cannot attest to any problems save for the Mosquito. I have an '89 P226 an '02 P229 and an '06 P239. All have been flawless and, oddly enough, it is the p226 that has the worst trigger of the three. I would have no qualms about buying a new Sig.

As for the 'older is better' myth that is perpetuated in the community I just take it with a grain of salt. A very large grain. As others have mentioned not too long ago there was no Internet. Factory fresh lemons from the past disappeared or were corrected long before most of us started buying any handguns, making us think there never were any to begin with. Bad memories also tend to fade faster than good ones. All of the above conspire to make us think the past was better than it was.

Lastly after 1990 there was no West Germany only Germany. Please, please stop talking about your '1995 West German' Sig and so forth. That is just plain wrong.

 

[rellascout]

Despite owning several Sigs I cannot attest to any problems save for the Mosquito. I have an '89 P226 an '02 P229 and an '06 P239. All have been flawless and, oddly enough, it is the p226 that has the worst trigger of the three. I would have no qualms about buying a new Sig.

As for the 'older is better' myth that is perpetuated in the community I just take it with a grain of salt. A very large grain. As others have mentioned not too long ago there was no Internet. Factory fresh lemons from the past disappeared or were corrected long before most of us started buying any handguns, making us think there never were any to begin with. Bad memories also tend to fade faster than good ones. All of the above conspire to make us think the past was better than it was.

Lastly after 1990 there was no West Germany only Germany. Please, please stop talking about your '1995 West German' Sig and so forth. That is just plain wrong.

While I can respect your views on current vs past Sig guns your statement above shows you do not really know your Sig history. You are entitled to your opinion if Sig is as good or better than they used to be. I personally think Sig is going the way of Kimber. Instead of producing rock solid pistols which are built on a solid foundation of reliability and quality they are now using the "good enough manufacturing mentality" to squeeze as much profit out of each unit they move. They are no longer interest in making the worlds best handguns they are interested in making the world's best handgun at a profit margin of X. They are entitled to make $$$ anyway they see fit but we as the shooting community have the right to call them on it and some of us have said no to it. I personally take a your comments with a grain of salt. Maybe even a Rock of salt... LOL

I think you make gross assumptions about what other people know and do not know. There are many veteran shooters here on this board who not only remember the good old days but where buying Sigs in the good old days. Some of us have first hand knowledge of the changes. We have owned, fired & inspected identical model guns of many vintages and know the changes which were made in each. For good or for bad. Change in and of itself is not bad but most of the change I have seen at Sig are not making the guns better. They are simply making them cheaper to produce. If you don't know your past then you don't know your future.

Your statements show you do not know your Sig past.... The old machinery which was used to mark the slides was not changed due to the cost after Germany reunited. So you are 100% wrong about there being no 1995 W. German marked Sigs.

For example here is a clearly marked P220 W German slide.



Turn if over and what do you find? Drum roll please.......... a KE date code.



KE = 1994 Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!!! When someone says they have a 1995 W German Sig they are referring to the rollmark and the fact it is a older stamped steel slide vs the current milled stainless steel slide. They are reporting what they own with 100% accuracy and those who know their Sigs know what they are taking about. Once the old engraving/stamping equipment ran its useful life they started to rollmark the guns Germany. This was somewhere in the late 90's IIRC varying a little bit between models.

 

[JustinL]

Well I certainly stand corrected!

Still it is the constant posts of how "they don't make 'em like they used to" heard about all manufacturers these days that makes me suspect of the whole idea about modern firearms being poor in quality. Well you live and you learn I guess.

Thanks again for the information.

 

[seed]

That picture of the springs is awesome. Where can I go to see the spring weights for all the different Sig models, then and now?



And JQP, that is interesting (what you said about the W. German marked 2004 P239's moving fast). Out here, it seems as if people are desiring the newer models, not the older ones -- especially not the 239's, which aren't moving at all on the used market. As I have said, I have seen some screaming deals just sit there and marinate. I realize we're in a recession and that it's tax time, but still! I'm staring right now at a mid-90's P229 going for $550. If I didn't already have one, I would have jumped on it long ago and bragged about it to my friends. But it's just sitting there...no interest by anyone. I just don't get it.

 

[rellascout]

Well I certainly stand corrected!

Still it is the constant posts of how "they don't make 'em like they used to" heard about all manufacturers these days that makes me suspect of the whole idea about modern firearms being poor in quality. Well you live and you learn I guess.

Thanks again for the information.

Please do not take my post negatively. I meant it with some humor which may not have completely come across properly.

Its not that they are poor in quality. It is not that they will not run. Its the mentallity behind the choices that bothers me. I know I sound like a broken record but I believe it or I would not keep saying it. I still believe that you chance of getting a good Sig is about 97 to 3. Most are going to be good to go. I think the Mosquito, P250 & P238 bring this avg down. Most P series guns are going to run but that does not necessarily mean they are as good as they used to be. Sig as a brand is under huge price pressures in todays gun market. They learned the hard way you cannot sell an avg polymer pistol for $650. The P250 is moving now only because it is a sub $500 gun, many are right at $400.

At some point Sig realized they the majority of Sig owners are not shooting their guns to hell and back. Take these # as a gain with a grain of salt they are for demonstration purposes only. That the reality is that most Sigs sold in the US will not see 20,000 rounds in their lifetime. So why build they to last for 50,000 at additional expense. The realize that for the majority of shooters 20,000 would be enough.

By swapping out parts which are not under high stress with mim, moving all slides to milled stainless, all guns to external extractors. I have no issues with the external extractors. Milled stainless does not balance as well for me but that is more of a personal preference. These are cosmetic because both are proven methods.

I think the growth of MIM is an indicator of the mentality changes. There hands on time with each pistol has gone down and you can see it in the level of burrs and rough spots on rails and slides. The devil is in the details and in those details I think Sig has lost its way.

 

[MCMXI]

That picture of the springs is awesome. Where can I go to see the spring weights for all the different Sig models, then and now?

Good question. Wolff seems to have the most detailed descriptions of the different spring weights for new and old SIGs.

http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto Pistols/SIG-SAUER (SIGARMS)/P-220/cID1/mID4/dID6

I found this information from Wolff regarding springs for the P220.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes: For Original P220 Models with 4.4" Barrels.
Not for use in P220C Compact models
Not for use in P220 Match Elite and P220 Super Match Stainless (ST)

* Reduced Power...: 14, 15, 16, & 18 Lb.
* Factory Standard.: 20 Lb.
* Extra Power.........: 22 & 24 Lb.

P220 RECOIL SPRING NOTES:
1. Current production has green painted recoil springs rated at 20 Lbs.
2. Earlier models had a black recoil spring rated at 15 Lbs.
3. Super .38 model has a 14 Lb. factory recoil spring.
4. Browning BDA .45 has a 14 Lb. factory recoil spring.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look at SIG SAUER's website, they offer three springs for the P220

SIG SAUER store

P220 Carry and Compact (Red)
P220 Combat, phosphate (Black)
P220, P220 X6 (Green)

I have a P220 that is a CPO model. The frame has a very old serial number but the slide is one of the stainless steel external extractor Equinox versions. That P220 came with a green spring. So this leaves me wondering about the spring rate of the P220 Combat TB. It has to be around 15 - 16lb given that it's noticeably easier to pull the slide back compared to any P220 with a green spring. So is this by design or an error? The slide is stainless with the external extractor, so why the lighter spring? I'm going to order some spare green springs and try one in the Combat. It's working perfectly at the moment, but I want longevity too, so if it functions flawlessly with a green spring as well, then that's what I want.

 

[Ala Dan]

IMHO

USA SIGARMS quality NEVER has been as good as
those manufactuered and assembled in West Germany~!

 

[rellascout]

USA SIGARMS quality NEVER has been as good as
those manufactuered and assembled in West Germany~!

I am not sure that is 100% true. The P229 which has been almost exclusively built here in the US at Exter has always been a very dependable gun. I think the orginal P229 is on par with the P228 except for the difference in front weight.

To me the P229 is a little top heavy.

 

[Ala Dan]

P229 being "top heavy" is correct; that is why I no longer own one~!

 

[seed]

I've looked at Wolff's springs for the P229 before. I think I have one somewhere I obviously never installed. I remember reading years ago about recommended weights for whatever ammo. I think I read it on Sigforums. Anyway, I don't remember what was recommended, nor do I know if these recommendations are up to date with current expert thinking.

So I'll ask here (why not?). Do you believe that Sig multi-coil springs are that much superior to a single coil Wolff Spring? And or do you think that extra power Wolff springs are a good idea for hot ammo? Just to get it out of the way, I am in the camp of going to more powerful than factory springs in general when shooting hot ammo. But in so believing, am I overlooking the advantages of a superior design in the multi-coil spring?

 

[rduckwor]

As a long time SIG lover and shooter, it pains me to say that their quality control has become and continues to progress to a "Kimber"-like state of being.

Doubt me? Spend a day reading the pistol section of SIG Forum. New pistols with the wrong trigger, FTF, Failure to return to battery, FTE. It goes on and on. And then their attitude when an owner calls and tries to get their pistol fixed.

Sadly, SIG Arms is the new Kimber.

RMD

 

[9mmepiphany]

Do you believe that Sig multi-coil springs are that much superior to a single coil Wolff Spring? And or do you think that extra power Wolff springs are a good idea for hot ammo? Just to get it out of the way, I am in the camp of going to more powerful than factory springs in general when shooting hot ammo.

I have it on very good authority that Sigs twisted multi-strand springs are much superior to the springs that Wolff offers for the same use, their tension qualities are different when compressed.

Which, of course, would lead to a negative to your second question too.

However I do believe that using a more powerful spring when shooting hot ammo is a good idea...just not the single strand springs

 

[JQP]

A lot of companies have gone down this road - IMO - including Glock, now.

No matter how one slices it, there is no doubt that there is more bitching and moaning about 4 Gen Glock (which...da da da da...are being produced in the U.S.) than any other generation Glock.

Even if one considers that there is always some whining, the relative massive volume of complaints on 4 Gen Glocks convinces me there's fire and not just smoke.

Gaston, why ya' got piss down my leg & then tell me it's raining?

 

[Pistol Ranch]

I have to agree that Sig has Q.C. issues. My example is with a recently purchased "Mosquito". Despite what has been posted by others, my new Mosquito operates flawlessly EXCEPT FOR ITS MAGAZINE/S. The magazine furnished with the pistol would "hang up" (The feeder would stick internally and fail to feed all of the rounds properly). The replacement magazine, sent by Sig, had the same problem. I purchased another magazine at a gun show and tested it for smooth operation before any cash changed hands. It works A.O.K.
In addition, the recoil spring installed in my new pistol was the wrong one (per the instruction manual) My pistol had the weak spring installed instead of the short (Hi-Velocity) spring. The instruction manual lists the length of the Sport Version pistol as 207 inches..also the trigger "pool" is listed as 3,5-6,6 lbs. The manual also states that one of the recoil springs is "marked white".... B.S!!
On top of that, the custeomer service person at Sig had an "attitude" when I called about the second bad magazine.
This ain't my first rodeo, I have 3 other Sigs (2 German made) with no issues whatsoever.
I do not understand why Sig would sully their reputation with poor Q.C.

 

[seed]

If you look at SIG SAUER's website, they offer three springs for the P220

SIG SAUER store

P220 Carry and Compact (Red)
P220 Combat, phosphate (Black)
P220, P220 X6 (Green)

I have a P220 that is a CPO model. The frame has a very old serial number but the slide is one of the stainless steel external extractor Equinox versions. That P220 came with a green spring. So this leaves me wondering about the spring rate of the P220 Combat TB. It has to be around 15 - 16lb given that it's noticeably easier to pull the slide back compared to any P220 with a green spring. So is this by design or an error? The slide is stainless with the external extractor, so why the lighter spring? I'm going to order some spare green springs and try one in the Combat. It's working perfectly at the moment, but I want longevity too, so if it functions flawlessly with a green spring as well, then that's what I want.

I looked at the site for 229 .40 springs and they listed a category for P229 .40/.357Sig...P250 (etc) as if they all use the same spring. They did not list differing strength options and or colors coordinating with those strength options. Can anyone point me in the right direction for multi-coil, different strength Sig P229 .40 springs?