USA SIGs quality not as good as in the past?

[Prion]

If MIM is such a problem, why aren't we seeing "better" parts on the market

Interesting point you have there.

I think this negative reaction to mim parts is a bit overboard.

Where are all the pictures of broken mim parts that would be flooding the net if it was such a big issue.

And where are the aftermarket replacements for Sig mim parts?

I wouldn't be buying any.

 

[JohnBT]

The world of injection molding is going on with or without the gun community.

www.pim-international.com/news

"22nd Sep, 2010 Polymer Technologies, Inc. continues to target the MIM aerospace market, and passes re-certification audit of its SAE AS9100B & ISO 9001:2008 "

"As part of MTU’s drive to improve the efficiency and performance of advanced aero engines, the company has in recent years been looking at metal injection molding (MIM) as a more cost-effective manufacturing method for complex shape compressor vanes "

_____________

The next conference in this series, MIM2011, will return to Orlando, Florida, 14-16 March 2011.

MIM 2010 Exhibitors:

Ametek, Inc.
AT&M Powdered Metal
Atect Corporation
Automated Cells & Equipment
AVS
BASF
Carpenter Powder Products
Centorr Vacuum Industries
CM Furnaces
Dynamic Group
Elnik Systems
Epson Atmix Corp.
Goceram
Orton Ceramic Foundation
Plansee USA
Polymer-Chemie
Pressure Technology
Proton Energy Systems
Ryer
Sandvik Osprey
SCM Metal Products
Smart Metal Powders
Sunrock Ceramics
Yuelong Superfine Metal
Zircar Cermaics

____________________________
____________________________

"My issue with MIM gun parts has to do with the nature in which they fail. They fail in a catastrophic nature."

At least with Kimber pistols during the past decade, it seems that those MIM parts that failed, failed shortly after purchase and not just randomly over the life of the gun. The technology has advanced a great deal during the past 10 years, too.

John

 

[Dobe]

At least with Kimber pistols during the past decade, it seems that those MIM parts that failed, failed shortly after purchase and not just randomly over the life of the gun. The technology has advanced a great deal during the past 10 years, too.

Unfortunately, that has left a bad taste in the mouths of gun buyers.

As far as the MIM in SIGs, if you haven't heard of major problems by now, they don't exist. MIM as well as polymer are the way things are going. Cost in manufacturing and competition dictate this.

 

[schmeky]

Please, not the MIM thing again. JohnBT got it right, the world of manufacturing is going ahead with MIM with or without you. I guess folks may have to sell off their current vehicles and recreational items as well since:

Honda has used powdered metal gears in their cycles and ATV's for years
Nearly all current automotive automatic transmissions use MIM ring gears
Automotive rear ring and pinion gears
U-joints
Bearings
Oil pump gears
Connecting rods in the newer Corvettes/Mustangs/etc.

Practically all firearms manufacturers use MIM somewhere. Reminds of the days when unleaded gas was introduced . . . . . . .

 

[Sheepdog1968]

In Col. Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Gossip vol 1 I think he talked about MIM and initially didn't like it. If I remember correctly, a major gun mfg sent him a firing pin that they had bent over in half without it breaking to proove a point that it's more durable than people give it credit for. It seemed to change his mind.

Having said that, I have heard too much from people who are full time firearm instructors not prone to internet gossip and rumors and have seen increased problems with Sigs. I haven't had a problem with my new Sigs and I've got 10K and 5K rounds between the two of them. It does concern me but since I'm not in the market for a new pistol I'm not loosing sleep over it.

 

[~Boomslang~]

Sig P250 works great, initial bugs worked out, nothing wrong with it or any other Sig. People just need something to blab about. Buy one shoot it keep it. It will be around longer than any of us.

 

[rellascout]

If MIM is such a problem, why aren't we seeing "better" parts on the market. How hard would it be to make a set of non MIM parts for SIGs? CNC, heat treat, ship ... DONE!!

You are not hearing more and seeing more problems because the vast majority of handguns sold in this will not see 1000 rounds worth of firing in a lifetime. They are not shot to the point of failure and the majority of people would not know who to tell if they had a problem. Active shooters like people who find their way to boards like these are the minority. The vast majority of guns are bought fired initial and the stored in a drawer in the home only seeing the light of day on rare occasions. The avg guy who gets a defective firearm and is not an enthusiast isn't running to his computer to report it to the world. They send it back to the manufacturer or take it back to the place they bought it and get it fixed.

Everyone who says that MIM is the future is probably right. I do not object across the board with the use of MIM parts. I have a problem with the philosophy behind their use by manufacturers like Sig who are leveraging the solid reliability of the older Sig P series to sell pistols. What they are actually selling you gets further and further from what built their reputation with every production change. I simply do not just Cohen Sig to properly test their current production methods before they put them into production. Look at the R&D track record of the company since he took over. They have not had a product launch that did not suffer from initial production failures. Name we one single Cohen launched Sig that went off without a hitch.

In todays manufacturing world every single company is racing to the bottom. MIM increases the depth they can reach but that does not mean it is the best thing for the consumer. MIM is great for the manufacturer because it cuts cost. Paying less does not mean you are getting more. Most of the time it means getting less. When you are working at the most cost effective level rarely are you working with the best method. Instead you are working with the lowest common denominator that you "think" will get the job done. it. MIMs #1 advantage and the reason it is becoming more prevalent in multiple industries not just firearms is because it reduces manufacturers cost. Nothing else.

IMHO todays market wants everything to be as cheap and disposable as possible which is a shame. The concept of value is completely lost in todays market. In the end to each their own. I will continue to shoot W. German Sigs and drive a 1990 Mercedes 560SEC. You can shoot your US made Exter Sigs and drive MIM Hondas.

 

[Prion]

manufacturers like Sig who are leveraging the solid reliability of the older Sig P series to sell pistols while selling you something very different which may or may not have been tested properly

That's a pretty weak argument to criticize a company as you did and then to say 'may or may not have been tested properly'.

Which is it?

What you are saying with that comment is that you don't really know.

You don't like MIM parts but apparently have no real empirical evidence to back up your assertions.

 

[rellascout]

That's a pretty weak argument to criticize a company as you did and then to say 'may or may not have been tested properly'.

Which is it?

What you are saying with that comment is that you don't really know.

You don't like MIM parts but apparently have no real empirical evidence to back up your assertions.

I am saying look at their track record under Cohens management and you decide if Sig is properly testing their new production products. I personally think that Sig is pushing product to the marketplace and letting the consumer work out the kinks. Every new gun that has been introduced under Cohen's management has followed the same playbook.

GSR problems right out of the gate.

556 Rifle early production was spotty. Canted rails miss matched finishes no irons and cheap Chinese parts.

Mosquito was and is IMHO an absolute dud. It not even made by Sig.

P250 Worst DOA trigger on the market and has had numerous production issues.

P238 is a cheapened version of the Mustang built to hit a price point in the crowded 380 auto market....

Did I miss anything?

Again you like others fail to read what I am saying. MIM is not the problem in an of itself. It is not the disease it is a symptom of the disease. Sig Sauers use of these parts is an attempt to strengthen their bottom line by reducing their production costs. It is the same reason they no longer test fire pistols. It is the same reason they now mill all slides. It is the same reason they have moved towards using only external extractors. The list goes on and on. It is about the bottom line for the company not about MIM. People latch on to that single point but cannot seem to grasp the overall picture. Having watched Sig over the last 15 years they are not the company they once were. This is not your fathers Sig Sauer. Its not even Sig Arms..... cavet emptor.

 

[Dobe]

You are not hearing more and seeing more problems because the vast majority of handguns sold in this will not see 1000 rounds worth of firing in a lifetime. They are not shot to the point of failure and the majority of people would not know who to tell if they had a problem. Active shooters like people who find their way to boards like these are the minority. The vast majority of guns are bought fired initial and the stored in a drawer in the home only seeing the light of day on rare occasions. The avg guy who gets a defective firearm and is not an enthusiast isn't running to his computer to report it to the world. They send it back to the manufacturer or take it back to the place they bought it and get it fixed.

Yes, it is true that the more active shooter will gravitate toward shooting forums like THR, but these forums are a matrix, which joins together information. If there is a problem with S&W's M&P for example, and it is reported on TFL, it will be reflected here at THR as well as other forums. Manufactures cannot hide their mistakes the way they could years ago.

Therefore, if MIM were a substantial problem for Sigs, we would hear of it.

In todays manufacturing world every single company is racing to the bottom. MIM increases the depth they can reach but that does not mean it is the best thing for the consumer. MIM is great for the manufacturer because it cuts cost. Paying less does not mean you are getting more. Most of the time it means getting less. When you are working at the most cost effective level rarely are you working with the best method. Instead you are working with the lowest common denominator that you "think" will get the job done. it. MIMs #1 advantage and the reason it is becoming more prevalent in multiple industries not just firearms is because it reduces manufacturers cost. Nothing else.

You may or not be willing to pay $1100 ( hypothetical number ) for what is now costing $800, but the average shooter will not be able to afford the cost, if MIM and other cost cutting items are not employeed. If manufacturers do not find a way to reduce cost while keeping standards high other companies will take their share of the business pie.

My eye is on HK. They are one of the few companies, which actually seems to hold to a standard. They do not have the marketing gimick guns. They test everything well before it leaves the factory, and their engineering is second to none. They have just located a factory in the US. We'll see if they go the way of Sig.

 

[Dobe]

Again you like others fail to read what I am saying. MIM is not the problem in an of itself. It is not the disease it is a symptom of the disease. Sig Sauers use of these parts is an attempt to strengthen their bottom line by reducing their production costs. It is the same reason they no longer test fire pistols. It is the same reason they now mill all slides. It is the same reason they have moved towards using only external extractors. The list goes on and on. It is about the bottom line for the company not about MIM. People latch on to that single point but cannot seem to grasp the overall picture. Having watch Sig over the last 15 years they are not the company they once were. This is not your fathers Sig Sauer. Its not even Sig Arms..... cavet emptor.

I've read your post, and I do believe in much of what you are saying. Sig's standard has dropped. At one time, I did not believe it. I do now. And you are passionate about your cause. MIM, and even the gimick guns are not the cause - as you have stated and stated well. I would assume that all firearm manufacturers are using MIM at this time. So, perhaps it is as simple as quality control. Their engineering and manufacturing processes are lacking. Testing each handgun is not the solution. Edward Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming believed a manufacturer would do more harm to his product and future product by testing at the end of the assembly line than any good that could be achieve by that act. Measurement, according to Deming, should be on each process. Once each process is in line and adhering to a standard, the end product is guaranteed. His one exception was computer chips.

Sig's problems are their process and perhaps engineering. You will eventually see most if not all manufacturers move away from testing many of their firearms at the end of the assembly line. Perhaps those chambered for high pressure rounds will be tested. This will be for litigation reasons as much as anything else.

 

[rellascout]

I've read your post, and I do believe in much of what you are saying. Sig's standard has dropped. At one time, I did not believe it. I do now. And you are passionate about your cause. MIM, and even the gimick guns are not the cause - as you have stated and stated well. I would assume that all firearm manufacturers are using MIM at this time. So, perhaps it is as simple as quality control. Their engineering and manufacturing processes are lacking. Testing each handgun is not the solution. Edward Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming believed a manufacturer would do more harm to his product and future product by testing at the end of the assembly line than any good that could be achieve by that act. Measurement, according to Deming, should be on each process. Once each process is in line and adhering to a standard, the end product is guaranteed. His one exception was computer chips.

I agree and Deming was a very smart business man.

I believe that everyone but custom 1911 builders are using MIM these days. HK, Sig, CA, S&W, Glock, Taurus etc... and again my objections are not about MIM but the mentality leading to its prevalence.

You hit the nail on the head when you said Sigs problem is their process and perhaps their engineering. I believe that these both stem from the the Cohen mindset and the corporate culture he has created.

 

[Dobe]

I understand, but the days of the pinned and recessed Smith & Wessons are gone.

 

[rellascout]

I understand, but the days of the pinned and recessed Smith & Wessons are gone.

Yeah they are..... :banghead: but that does not mean I have to like it.

 

[Dobe]

What Cohen did to Kimber hurt them. They had an excellent reputation for 1911s at one time. They were setting the standard. Now, I wonder how much of the market Kimber has lost. If Sig goes the way of Kimber, the market will beat them badly.

I have only one Sig. It is a New 225 made in Germany. And I must admit, that I bought it in part, because I was hoping the German-made would stand a better chance of not have any defects.

I just picked it up two weeks ago. So far, it's good.

 

[rellascout]

What Cohen did to Kimber hurt them. They had an excellent reputation for 1911s at one time. They were setting the standard. Now, I wonder how much of the market Kimber has lost. If Sig goes the way of Kimber, the market will beat them badly.

I have only one Sig. It is a New 225 made in Germany. And I must admit, that I bought it in part, because I was hoping the German-made would stand a better chance of not have any defects.

I just picked it up two weeks ago. So far, it's good.

I love the P225. Simply a great gun. It too often gets lost in todays world of hi cap wonder 9mms.

For me the single stack grip on the P225 simply points right for me. I just wish there were more reasonably price mags around for them.

 

[~Boomslang~]

P250 Worst DOA trigger on the market and has had numerous production issues.

I cant beleive I'm reading this.... Either you have never picked one up, or you just dont know triggers... I have read this same gunk from other threads on the net, and Im baffled each time. The only people writing this are posters on the net. Every person I know that has fired mine, that I can vouch for their credibility, really know guns, and loves the P250 trigger. Gunwriters included. The P250 has one of the most buttery smooth DAO triggers I have ever felt, and I have felt ALOT of triggers. "has had" numerous production problems. Those are the same problems remedied by Sig. That is why you dont see the same problems out of the new P250's.

 

[rellascout]

I cant beleive I'm reading this.... Either you have never picked one up, or you just dont know triggers... I have read this same gunk from other threads on the net, and Im baffled each time. The only people writing this are posters on the net. Every person I know that has fired mine, that I can vouch for their credibility, really know guns, and loves the P250 trigger. Gunwriters included. The P250 has one of the most buttery smooth DAO triggers I have ever felt, and I have felt ALOT of triggers. "has had" numerous production problems. Those are the same problems remedied by Sig. That is why you dont see the same problems out of the new P250's.

Owned one for about 6 months and sold it. For the money there are better guns IMHO. While the trigger is smooth it is excessively long. The reset is horrible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKl0GhiyQ3Y

If you are used to older wheel guns with DAO triggers I can see some of the appeal but it was a complete no go for me. Also the market is speaking very loudly on this pistol. Sig is having a hard time moving this metal. The Gen 1 guns were liquidated under $450 and the Gen 2s are not selling.

Again you admit to Sigs problems with fire controls, FTF, FTE, the mag not holding the stated # of rounds etc.... but give them a pass because they are fixing them? The P250 is a perfect example of letting the buying public do your R&D testing.

 

[~Boomslang~]

Sig is having a hard time moving this metal. The Gen 1 guns were liquidated under $450 and the Gen 2s are not selling.

Rella, It may be the case where you are. However I can tell you with certainty that, here in Georgia, the pistol is selling fine. Also I have had several distributors confirm to me that Sig has stated that it is currently their best selling handgun. As far as the magazines go. I am willing to bet that the same pansy thumbs that couldnt load the Glocks to capacity are also weighing in on this. In addition Sig doesnt make the magazines, they are Italian made as most manufactures are. Sig just stamps their names on them. While it may have stumbled a bit out of the gate, I see no reason to brand it a dud for life. It definately fills a niche.

 

[Dobe]

Sig is still responsible for magazines with their name on it. That is part of QC. I believe the 250 has been seen as a problem, and Sig may not be able to resurect this model to their satisfaction. Remember the history of such guns as the P22. They were one of the hottest things in a gun store until the problems surfaced. P22s still selll, but they are not the hot little 22s they once were.

 

[JohnBT]

"Now, I wonder how much of the market Kimber has lost."

None, they still own the 1911 market according to the numbers published on the BATFE site.

The latest figures are from 2008 (with the 2009 figures due anytime iirc). Kimber sold something like (I'm too lazy to look it up again this week) 58,000 pistols, looking at the 'up to 50 cal. column'. The closest 1911 maker was Colt with almost 20,000 iirc. Springfield had 8900.

John

Here, my client just cancelled: www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2008-firearms-manufacturers-export-report.pdf

 

[schmeky]

Actually Kimber sold more 1911's than all other 1911 makers combined IIRC.

 

[~Boomslang~]

Sig is still responsible for magazines with their name on it. That is part of QC.

Agreed Dobe, However this is not a valid problem in my eyes. I know many owners of the P250, that have no problem with this. and I have several mags myself. I beleive this is a pansy thumb problem as I stated. The springs are nuts strong, and the gun itself is overbuilt, far fewer working parts than most pistols. I trust mine everyday with my life.

 

[AK103K]

Ive never understood all the crying about the P250 either. Mines been 100% since day one. Its been totally reliable, and its just as accurate as any of the other SIG's.

Its got the most comfortable grip of any of the other SIG's Ive owned, and the trigger is one of, if not the best DA trigger in any factory auto Ive owned.

Yea, they messed up on the number of stated rounds in the mag, big deal. The mags work. Whats the complaint, other than to complain and nit pick?

Same goes for the trigger. Seems to me, its just a user issue if they cant shoot the gun, and only shows they need work and maybe some diversity in their "tool box". All this emphasis on triggers is silly, just shoot the gun. SIG, Glock, Colt, HK, etc, whats it matter? If you cant pick any of them up and shoot them, the fault doesnt lay with the gun.

 

[rellascout]

Same goes for the trigger. Seems to me, its just a user issue if they cant shoot the gun, and only shows they need work and maybe some diversity in their "tool box". All this emphasis on triggers is silly, just shoot the gun. SIG, Glock, Colt, HK, etc, whats it matter? If you cant pick any of them up and shoot them, the fault doesnt lay with the gun.

I love it... I never said I did not shoot it well. I shoot Glocks well enough but don't like their triggers. The P250 shot just fine in my hands. With some many better options on the market why own a gun you don't particularly like?

Agreed Dobe, However this is not a valid problem in my eyes. I know many owners of the P250, that have no problem with this. and I have several mags myself. I beleive this is a pansy thumb problem as I stated. The springs are nuts strong, and the gun itself is overbuilt, far fewer working parts than most pistols. I trust mine everyday with my life.

If you don't know your past then you don't know your future. The problem was that the original P250 9mm was specd and sold originally as a 16+1 gun. They shipped them as 16+1 guns but customers could not get the last round in the mag. They reported it to Sig and they said oh my bad it should be 15 which is the spec now. It has nothing to do with thumbs and everything to do with poor design and R&D.