USFA 1858 Remington

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earn a fair wage

define a fair wage.

I am just saying I would not pay that for a revolver. I would not pay that for any pistol.

I can buy something that to me is just as good and not pay an exorbitant price.

The money bridge would not be impossible to gap. Like CoT says about not paying that for Wes Hardin's revolver. Heck not even for Wild Bill's revolver. (which I learned today on Wild West tech was not a cap and ball 1851 while he was in Deadwood, but rather a cartridge conversion model)
 
He was buried with a Smith & Wesson No. 2 Old Army, with a tip-up barrel and chambered in .32 RF. That and a sporterized .45-70 Springfield rifle. Neither might have been his. One of his famous pair of ivory-stocked and engraved 1851 Navies is in a museum in California. The whereabouts of the other one is unknown.

Was actually going for a figure of speech, there. But, thanks for the clarification.

Whaddya expect from someone, who admits to having screwed up in spelling a name, containing four whole letters? :D
 
I wonder how the accuracy of the USFA Remington compares to that of some European target models such as the Pedersoli Remington. The latter has a track record we can examine, while the former does not. While we are on the subject of accuracy, who manufactures the most accurate caplock revolver on the market today? My gut feeling is USFA will not win that prize. That honor may go to Feinwerkbau, Hege or Pedersoli. Incidentally, the three European manufacturers I mentioned do not produce inexpensive guns, and their prices will increase as the dollar declines in value.


Timthinker
 
Perk, was you comment directed at my Wild Bill comment? Not that it matters, but I always thought he had only percussion revolvers, I found it interesting they claimed today that he had converted models.
 
I found it interesting they claimed today that he had converted models.

I don't think that he did.

He had a known aversion to early metallic cartridges of that time, because they were often duds. He went to some lengths to fire, clean and reload his revolvers each day. Explaining this to a friend he said, “When I pull I must be sure.”

One revolver of the famous pair of ivory stocked and engraved 1851 Navy Colts is now in the Gene Autry Western Heritage Museum in Los Angeles, California; and still in its original percussion form. The location of the other revolver, if it survived, is unknown.
 
thats what I though as well Fuff. The episode of WWT this morning was the first time I have heard he had cartridge guns in Deadwood. I do not want to doubt your wisdom, makes me really wonder which is true.
 
This site has helped me pass a lot of time the last couple of days, especially today.
I don't know if this is true or not (I have good reason to believe that it is true) but I have read that it was a .36 that he shot his deputy and friend with that night. Evidently it wasn't so much that he had such bad eyes at that time as it was that it was dark and he was in the process of a sort of running gunfight in town there at the time. He saw a man (it turned out to be his deputy and close friend) way down at the other end of town and he must have thought it was one of them.
It was a long shot he made, and get this.
Cap and Ball. Must have had plenty of grease over those balls or else he just wasn't thinking. He was holding the .36 in his right hand. He raised his left hand up in front of his face and rested the gun barrel over his left arm to steady the shot. When he walked over there and saw that it was his best friend he went kind of crazy. Started yelling and cursing and made everybody get off the street under threat of being shot on the spot. He never did get the men whom he was originally looking for, who had come to town looking for him. (Over the next few days some of the townspeople measured the distance of that shot. It was an extremely difficult shot to make) At least there were a couple of them he didn't get.
I'vd got a couple of pictures around here somewhere of him wearing glasses. (spectacles) They had to be mailed to him from back east somewhere. Pennsylvania I want to say.
Some of the whores he ran with a lot said he didn't like to wear them because he was so vain.
I guess he was a product of his times. He kept the law alright in his own way, but today he would still be considered a cold blooded killer which I guess on the bottom line is what he really was.
Wes Hardin was the only man to ever back him down that anybody today know's about. Hardin was in town off a cattle drive and they had a few words. Wild Bill didn't want any part of Hardin. Hardin was drunk and discharged his firearm in town. Wild Bill waited until Hardin's gun was back in his holster and then walked up to Hardin with his hand on his own gun and told Hardin he wanted his gun until he left town and headed back toward the herd. Then, just that fast, Wild Bill found himself looking right into the muzzle of that 1860 and he decided he didn't want Hardin's gun after all. He turned and walked away and Hardin hurried up and got out of town before Wild Bill showed up again with some of his shotgun toting deputies. Wild Bill was damned lucky Hardin didn't shoot him on the spot. I'm sure Wild Bill knew that to. I'd be willing to bet that when Wild Bill was walking away his ass**** was drawn up so tight you couldn't have driven a watermelon seed up it with a sledgehammer.
If I come across those photographs I will post them....What I typed here did not come out of a damn movie or cheap pocket novel....
 
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I do not want to doubt your wisdom, makes me really wonder which is true.

I won't take any offence if you do… ;) :D

That one-of-a-pair, 1851 Navy revolver is in the Autry museum on public display.

So far as I know, no specific mention of any particular firearms Wild Bill was carrying the day he was killed has come down to us, and is possible (but not likely) he was unarmed. If he was armed he didn’t have a chance to draw because he was shot from behind. He might or might not have been carrying the little .32 tip-up Smith & Wesson he was buried with, but he was unquestionably buried with it, because it and a sporterized .45-70 Springfield were found in the grave when his remains were disinterred in 1879.

I have no idea what evidence the Deadwood movie/TV company offered to support they’re contention that Hickok (correct spelling) had cartridge converted revolvers, and so far as history knows he was not involved in any shootings in Deadwood; and unlike during his Kansas days he wasn’t giving public or news media marksmanship demonstrations. However given the recent introduction of Italian reproductions of Colt cartridge conversions that can fire metallic cartridge blanks, I can understand why they might try to sell that story. Firing blanks in true cap & ball revolvers would be far more difficult. :uhoh:
 
Yup, after I posted I started to think the same thing...

You were right, and pardon the pun: made a good move. :evil:
 
"The 1858 sometime in Aug . All the things we have heard about the price ...is right on ...the 1858 Price is 1,495.00 the 1875 is 1,895.00 ..
Well that ended my love affair for a USFA Remington...Uberti`s are looking better every day now ...I hope someone buys one and turns the cylinder on it ...They are non shooting safe queens to me ."

I'm with sundance on this one. After all, most gun-owners don't know what the hell an 1858 Remington is. I don't think too many people are going to be willing to pay anywhere near that much for one.

Hell, you could buy an Uberti or Pietta, send it to Armsport or Raven's Roost, and have it remanufactured into a 1869 Rolin-White Army or Navy Cartridge Conversion, including rehardening and hand-fitting of internals, and refinishing, for less money.

I was thinking it would come in around the same price as a ROA, which would be expensive enough, but $1500 is just crazy talk.

If they can sell the Rodeo for $550, why can't they make a '58 Remmie somewhere in that ballpark? I don't think they'll sell enough of them to justify cost of production. Hence, I think they're going to lose their shirts on this one. I don't think it's going to be around very long. :(

Those second and third generation Colt Colts are starting to look real reasonable at this point.
 
There are folks on this forum that buy 1911 Colt-style .45 pistols for more then $1,600. Reproduction Winchester 1873 and '76 rifles sell well in that price range. So do the better reproductions of Sharps rifles. Performance Center custom revolvers from S&W are selling for close to or more then $1,600, and Colt continues to sell their Single Action Army.

Ya' have to face up to it... Some people do have the money... ;)
 
Some people do have the money...

It must be nice Fuff. If I had 1600 to plunk down on a gun I would probably take it and buy something like a quad for my grandson. But then again whoever plunks that dough down on a gun can probably afford to buy the quad and the gun.

Being broke has its drawbacks, lol
 
It may come down to a 'built to order' type of situation. You want the gun, you put your order in and pay up front. Allow 6 weeks to 1 year for delivery. That sort of thing.
Mike 101, I agree with you. I have been trying to find out what percentage of the 300 million or so Americans in this country are into blackpowder period. I haven't arrived at a definitive percentage point yet but I'm far enough along to be able to tell you that it is a very small percentage indeed.
Most of that small percentage opt for a good rifle. The percentage left over that opt for a revolver are very, very small.
Look here, the number of 'cowboy action shooters' and people like us who like to shoot the blackpowder revolvers all added together does not amount to a flea on a dog's ass. Of the people like us who shoot the revolvers..how many of us are deep enough into it to be willing to get into our checking account, or the children's college fund, or whatever to buy one of them at that price? Especially when there's already so many other good things around the house and concerning their family that the money could be used for?..Not very damned many, I'll guarantee you that.
As far as the collectors go, yeah, there may be a tiny few here and there but most of the collector's are looking for old guns. They're not looking to drop their money on a gun that 'just came out yesterday' so to speak.
I will be watching this s***. I guarantee you that I will be.
USFA won't really get hurt. They're like Rolls Royce. "Hey, you pay us the money, we'll build you the car". But they are going to find that very, very few people are willing to do that.
There's another factor at play here also.
Pietta and Uberti (Pietta mostly) used to build crap. Not any more. Over the last several years they have gotten their head and ass wired together and are turning out some fine products at a much lower price. The American dollar is down some now but it won't stay down. However, even while it's down, Pietta and Uberti still have good prices.
You're right on something else to. You can get your Pietta or Uberti fine tuned and fixed up for less money than USFA's asking price. Plus, you can get it done some at a time instead of laying all the money out at one time and hoping for the best.
I'm not exactly a dumb sonofab**** and I could trot out some more stuff here, but I'm just going to pour myself a cup of coffee and make a couple of fried egg sandwiches and let it all slide on by....
 
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Being broke has its drawbacks, lol

True, but my Daddy told me that brains and skill can often get one to where they want to get, money not withstanding. He also pointed out that a fool and his cash are often soon parted... :scrutiny: ;)

I don't begrudge those that have the means going out any buying the USFA revolver, and I'm not going to loose any sleep over it. If anything I consider it to be a challenge. Cap & ball revolvers are not particularly complicated, and what is necessary to wring out the best possible accuracy is well known – at least to old timers. If shooting is the name of the game I don’t particularly care if the barrel says “Remington & Sons … “ on the top.

Some years ago Numrich Arms (the gun parts company) put out a very inexpensive caplock under-hammer rifle. Being basically evil, I delighted in taking one to local muzzleloading matches and outshooting others with far more expensive equipment. Money didn’t always = trophies.

It is clear that a number of our members are disappointed – or maybe outraged – that this revolver that they wanted so badly is beyond them because of the cost. But I have learned over a long lifetime that this can often be the case, and concerning many things. But when it happens I remember my Daddy’s wise advise. Rather then get grumpy I coped with whatever I had, and almost always came out O.K.

In this case the proof of the pudding is where the holes are in the target, not the name on the barrel. Never forget that. The best revolver is the one that produces the tightest groups, and who made it and how much it costs really doesn’t matter. ;) :)
 
Old Fuff, good morning..
Your Daddy was a pretty smart man..Mine was to.
Tight groups or a dead rabbit show the detail's on what really counts.
It took me about 9 years I guess, but little by little I got it all done without hurting myself money wise on other stuff I wanted to do, and I have some of the most accurate barrels that can be had on my Pietta's and that's the truth. I even paid an engraver they recommended an extra $100.00 per gun to put Pietta's name and proof marks on the barrel just exactly how they were when I first bought them from Cabela's. Even the Target Model my sister gave me this last Christmas. The only difference on the outside of each barrel is that next to 'Made In Italy' there
is a five pointed star that stand's for 'perfect barrel'. I don't know if they're really perfect or not but they are supposed to be and I was assured they were, each time, one gun at a time.
They're just old blackpowder revolvers. Not worth a lot of money. They're just worth a lot to me.
I agree with you about how disappointing it must be to some THR and other forum members (I'vd never been to another forum) who have their heart's set on owning one. They'll get it worked out.
But like I stated on a previous post here yesterday, I can't help it. Uberti and later Pietta is what I started with. I feel a great sense of loyalty toward both of them, so I guess that whatever USFA (whom I'd never even heard of until just a few months ago on this site) does is really nothing to me.
Just like the ROA. I don't want one of them but I wish they had kept it in production. You see what happened to them behind their high prices....
 
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Actually, if the truth were known, there isn't anything wrong with Pietta or Uberti barrels. If there is a problem (and often there isn't) it's one or both of two things:

1. The chambers are undersized for the bores. This was very common in past years, but they are much improved today, and reaming the chambers isn't very difficult if it's required. A bigger issue may be finding the correct size balls for the reamed chambers. But if you cast your own there is nothing to worry about.

2. The chamber is not concentric with the bore. The answer for a .44 revolver is to buy a .36 caliber cylinder (available only for Remington clones) and line bore the chambers out to .451" (or whatever). This would take a more expensive set-up, but I believe one of these days someone will offer it.

In recent years both Italian makers have retooled with better equipment, and Uberti has the financial power of Beretta behind it. I have a hard time understanding why some people think they are making inferior guns...

Because the truth is they aren't, and they keep getting better.
 
USFA replica '58

Clearly, the USFA boys know how to make a piece of work that appeals to the well heeled seeker of replica steel. The price point they choose for their merchandise seems to be directed to the "gotta-have-it" guy whose budget won't allow a guild gun, but doesn't find him in the big box mailorder catalogs, either.

How many of these guns are actually going to be shot enough by seriously competent marksmen to prove how really good they are seems questionable - to me, anyway.

The case with the Feinwerkbau Rogers & Spencer and the very special Italian made '58 Hege "Maximum" is quite different. In the European marketplace, you can buy the equivalent gun in wall hanger aestheics for a pretty penny, alright. And it's a really wonderful bit of workmanship. But when you go to buy the ones that shoot, and that is to say the one's you would expect to wind a class at the MLIAC, you will pay about three times as much. There's about as much reason to own one of these and keep it in a cabinet as there is for owning a field-trial blood pointer to take for walks on a leash. The folks that buy them do so because they shoot them, seriously, and a lot.

Now, do the match grade Hege's shoot into 1/3 the group size of their aesthetic twins? Likely, not. It would take a careful expert quite a long time with a Ransom rest to even give a competent estimate of marginal benefit. What we all know is that different folks have different definitions of what constitutes great shooting, even in the 97th percentile crowd that can really know the difference.

The point is that you will pay about the same for one of the Euro match guns (http://www.vorderlader.com/vorderlader/perkussionsrevolver.html for example) as USFA seems to be getting for its '58. The '58 Maximum and R&S will set you back around €1000 or about $1500 USD. And these are proven, very proven guns. Just like if you shoot air- or free- pistol, you're not going to find what you need at Walmart or Bass Pro Shop.

Will someone make the world medalist grade shooting a USFA replica? Well, unless USFA wants to sponsor a squad of world class marksmen, we won't know. And USFA has enough of a market without doing that. That's why you won't see them staking anything on performance.

Now, if you want to know just how good you can be shooting a percussion revolver on this side of the big water and you're not committed to the byzantine foolishness of handicapping for the sake of looking like something in a Matthew Brady print, you can sure find out. Just get a Ruger Old Army and that's not just us tooting the horn. The why of it ought to be obvious to even the casual observer. What went into into making a ROA, even the ones made after 4:30 on Thursdays, is head and shoulders better suited to pure accuracy precision and the logistics of high scores or small groups in the real world of hands and eyes than anything but the match grade Europeans. And with precious little work, a tuned ROA will shoot better, really. That's that.

If you're not planning on taking a gun to Adelaide in August, save your chips for Swiss powder and good lead. The ROA wins the day here, hands down. Not just us talking, either, but we believe in X's, steel rams knocked over, and hogs that don't take extra steps, and guns that don't give up after the first thousand rounds. I doubt we'll ever know that USFA's lovely, pricey gun can live up to that. If you aren't concerned about such things, well there are a lot of shiny historic replicas that go bang for less money and trouble, and that's okay if that's what you want.

That's what I know, anyway.

Wisent
classicballistx.com
 
For what it's worth, I agree with the above observations, but I didn't go into the Ruger Old Army because it is about to become a moot point. That being the case I focused on Remington style reproductions. It has been generally acknowledged in past threads that while the Old Army was an excellent (and probably superior) revolver the market was more focused on 19th century reproductions.

I would note that a brand-new Old Army has been listed twice on Gunbroker, and so far not gotten a single bid. I find this to be surprising given that opportunities are about to run out, but anyway if anyone is interested here is a link, and I will recommend the seller as being honest.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=95756698
 
Classicballistx, thank you for addressing a question I posted about the accuracy of the USFA Remington. I also doubt that it will perform on the level of the match grade European pistols, but I may be wrong. That said, I think a useful idea-and a potential thread-is how to convert a Remington style caplock into a highly accurate target pistol. Old Fluff and others have some good ideas on this topic, and I believe the time has come to explore them.

I also agree with your assessment of the ROA. Thanks again.


Timthinker
 
Not anything hard about that and you don't have to get it all done at one time. Or, you can let them hold the gun and do work on it as you pay them.
I'm not a gunsmith and I know a few people who call themselves gunsmiths that are not gunsmith's either.
Get the internal parts hardened and polished and make sure the trigger break's at whatever poundage he/she and you agree on. Not what your your buddy tell's you that you need. Your buddy is not the one shooting the damn gun.
Have a rifled barrel built from stock. Not just any old rifled barrel. You want that barrel perfect. Let them rifle it out with lands and grooves the way they explain to you that it need's to be for the ultimate accuracy with your swaged round lead ball.
Don't try and tell the gunsmith how to do his job. Tell them what you want and then leave them alone. If you'vd got some good people, they'll have a lot of pride in their work. If you try to tell them that so and so said do it this way or that way, they'll hand the piece back to you and tell you that maybe you need to get so and so to do the work.
When he and/or she get's through (it may take them months. It may not. It mostly just depend's on how long it take's them to get a barrel right and what their work load is) you will have something. Everything will be right. The distance between the forcing cone and the front of the cylinder, the way the cylinder mouth line's up with the forcing cone or with the barrel, however you want to say it.
It will give you a lot of pleasure knowing that good people are fixing up your piece.
It will cost you some money but it's over a period of time. It's a lot easier than just plunking down a lot of money at one time up front and then going home and worrying yourself to death about whether you got screwed or not.
No one really need's to do all of that unless they just want to or feel they need to. Most of the time the revolvers right out of the box will shoot all the squirrels or hogs you need with no problem.
But then again, truthfully, if you do shoot a right smart you will be able to tell the difference for sure....
 
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I might get one of the USFA guns...but if I do, I fully intend to have a talk with them first, as I want a full match gun.

Because I AM going to Adelaide.

By the way, the Hege match guns WILL shoot the tight groups. I've been shooting one for fifteen years, and it is like trading a Ruger Mk II for a Hammerli 208.
 
USFA & Adelaide

Mike -

I should have figured the exception would surface!

For those of you who don't know it, if you want to represent your country in the interest of competition at the world level in muzzleloading shooting competition, this is your point man.

For those of you who want to know if the USFA product can stand up, you may read from the pen (...er, keyboard) of the one person I've ever corresponded with who can validate the answer. He's probably more humble than to admit it, though.

I hope a U.S. shooter with an American made product can do the trick. Call it patritoism if you like.

Good luck, Mike! And I hope you can recruit some folks to travel in your company and compete at your level!

Wisent

P.S. I still think the MLIAC is byzantine...
 
I'll bet that the USFA model probably have progressive rifling, gain twist, like the Dixie Gun Works' "Shooters" revolver by Pietta.
 
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