Using glue to hold barrels in place?

[woodnbow]

I'm sorry, IMO the concepts that you are describing are not safe or realistic if intending to build a working gun that's made to fire.
While in theory, almost anything can be made to fire once or a limited number of times. that's not what safe or responsible BP gun building is about.
Since I have no idea about the quality, size or weight of your intended parts, I have no basis to make helpful recommendations.

But individual threaded breech plugs are generally the only accepted method for sealing hollow .44 barrels.
There are screw barrel pistols that are loaded by unscrewing the barrel, but a solid steel receiver is still an important part of the concept of safety.
Below is a photo of the breech plug for a flintlock rifle, which pretty much has the same design as a small .45 Derringer pistol would have.
It's easy to see the amount of safety that's built into it by being made with such a large amount of quality steel.

View attachment 940818
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52089.0

There’s another name for the home built firearm like this... hand grenade. @Revolver.45 I’m glad you came here for advice and information and I understand the desire to build something yourself of your own unique concept and construction. If I may make a suggestion, find an inexpensive small boot pistol or something along those lines. They are inexpensive, safe, and will introduce you directly to the designs and principles of safe muzzleloading firearms.

 

[Revolver.45]

Since I have no idea about the quality, size or weight of your intended parts, I have no basis to make helpful recommendations.

The two bolts that will assemble the barrels to the angle plate are in size M6 (DIN 912), of steel quality 12.9 (which seem to be the strongest quality available? Atleast these screws were the strongest I could find). I will use the same kind of screws to assemble the angle iron to the receiver/frame, but in size M4.The nuts that I’ll use will also have the same strength of 12.9.

The barrels in the middle will be supported by both bolts, while the other barrels only will be supported by one.

The maximum charge I’ll load this pistol with will be 45 grains of 3F. (I’ve only shot black powder pistols loaded with 25 grains, and frankly I didn’t even felt the recoil).

I might proof load the gun though, with two roundballs over 60 grains of 3F.

 

[Revolver.45]

Welding is your friend here. What is the breach? Do you drill the “barrels” to a specific depth and then leave them solid at the breach end? The two machine screws do not physically attach the barrels to your angle plate unless the barrel assembly is welded.

Instead of welding them together I thought about mechanically holding the barrels together. I didn’t include that in the picture, but basically wrapping the barrels around multiple times with a fastener, like steel wire.

The barrels will be made out of barstock, with a wall thickness of 0.098”, and also 0.098” at the bottom (so yes, they’re drilled to a specific depth and finished with an end mill and then leaved with a solid breach end).

I find the idea of having the ignition system at the breach end interesting. If I drill the 0.06” touch holes at the breech the mechanical attachment will have to withstand BP pressure. I wounder how much pressure will a 0.06” hole let out?

 

[arcticap]

A poster here has made replacement breech plugs for his inline rifle from hardened bolts.
The factory barrel threading just needed to be matched up for the bolt to fit.

 

[arcticap]

Then he drilled a chamber into the bolt so that he could insert a primed cartridge case into it, which became the ignition system.
Other companies also do this, but he did the work himself.

 

[woodnbow]

Instead of welding them together I thought about mechanically holding the barrels together. I didn’t include that in the picture, but basically wrapping the barrels around multiple times with a fastener, like steel wire.

The barrels will be made out of barstock, with a wall thickness of 0.098”, and also 0.098” at the bottom (so yes, they’re drilled to a specific depth and finished with an end mill and then leaved with a solid breach end).

I find the idea of having the ignition system at the breach end interesting. If I drill the 0.06” touch hole at the breech the mechanical attachment will have to withstand BP pressure. I wounder how much pressure will a 0.06” hole let out?

A poster here has made replacement breech plugs for his inline rifle from hardened bolts.
The factory barrel threading just needed to be matched up for the bolt to fit.

Following up on arcticap’s post, you could drill the bores, tap one end and then drill your backplate for the six barrels. Run six appropriately sized hardened bolts through the backplate, install the barrels onto the bolts and Viola’! No wire wrapping or epoxy needed, the barrels are now solidly mounted to the angle iron, or whatever you choose ultimately...

 

[StrawHat]

You don’t need or want, hardened bolts. Every breechplug I have ever fitted was soft enough to easily file.

Kevin

 

[arcticap]

You don’t need or want, hardened bolts. Every breechplug I have ever fitted was soft enough to easily file.

Kevin

I'm not sure exactly how hard the bolts were that Snidely70431 was using, but since he was trying to replace CVA factory breech plugs and cutting chambers into them, he used Grade 8 crown bolts and offered this explanation:

"Explanation about why I used the Grade 8 crown bolts, besides being cheap, fast and easy in comparison to cutting threads:

Grade 8 Bolts and fasteners are comprised of carbon-alloy steel, heat treated in a carbon controlled atmosphere and are generally the most durable and reliable fastener. Grade 8 bolts have the highest ratings with tensile strength of 150,000 psi. Grade 8 bolts are used marine, military, aerospace, off-road vehicle markets and related mechanical applications where stress and strong load bearing pressure is required." --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nlines-using-cartridges.846989/#post-11039281

A Grade 8 bolt is stronger than a stainless steel bolt which rates at a Grade 5, but doesn't have the corrosion resistance.

Stainless steel bolts are rated for corrosion resistance. Bolt strength is rated in PSI (pounds per square inch). A stainless steel bolt has the same PSI rating as a grade 5 bolt (125,000 PSI). A grade 8 bolt has a stronger rating with a PSI of 150,000. --->>> https://www.nutsandbolts.com/v10-stainless-steel-grade.html

And Grade 8 bolts are harder than Grade 5:

"Grade 8 / Grade G
Grade 8 bolts have been hardened more than grade 5 bolts. Thus they are stronger and are used in demanding applications such as automotive suspensions. Grade 8 bolts have 6 evenly spaced radial lines on the head." --->>> https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/materials.aspx#:~:text=Grade 8 / Grade G,radial lines on the head.

 

[Revolver.45]

I want to be able to pack the barrels together tightly without any space in-between them, perhaps integrating a solid bolt at the rear of each barrel is the best solution?



Extending the rear, cutting it down with a lathe and tapping threads to it. Nuts that fit the threads will be used to secure the barrels to the plate. Is there any disadvantage with this method?

 

[woodnbow]

There you go...

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

If the threaded rods are threaded the same for their full length, then when you tighten the nuts, the rods will unscrew from your barrels. In this configuration, usually the threads on one end of the rod go the opposite direction of the ones on the other end so tightening the nut actually tightens the rod at the other end. Caveat - when this is done, DO NOT HOLD IT WHILE TESTING IT!!! An old quarry with a very long rope to you hiding in a bunker MIGHT be better! My mechanical suggestion here is not an endorsement of this project. Stay Safe!

Edit - Sorry I did not fully read your plan for turning down the barrels and threading them!

 

[StrawHat]

View attachment 940876

Threaded axle rod will work. Also thread the plate. If you want nuts behind the plate, they will a t as locking nuts.

Kevin

 

[Dave T]

I might proof load the gun though, with two roundballs over 60 grains of 3F.

Your enthusiasm is admirable. I'm sorry to be so negative about your ideas but what you have described in the above comment is a pipe bomb. Please re-think this whole project. I fear you are going to do serious bodily injury to yourself or someone near by.

Dave

 

[Revolver.45]

If the threaded rods are threaded the same for their full length, then when you tighten the nuts, the rods will unscrew from your barrels. In this configuration, usually the threads on one end of the rod go the opposite direction of the ones on the other end so tightening the nut actually tightens the rod at the other end. Caveat - when this is done, DO NOT HOLD IT WHILE TESTING IT!!! An old quarry with a very long rope to you hiding in a bunker MIGHT be better! My mechanical suggestion here is not an endorsement of this project. Stay Safe!

Edit - Sorry I did not fully read your plan for turning down the barrels and threading them!

If a smaller hole is drilled at the (solid) breech end, a bolt could be used in a similar manner to what you describe, but without the risk of unscrewing.


The bolt is inserted through the bore down to the chamber. The bolt head rest at the breech wall while the threaded part will be sticking out from the hole - allowing attachment. Gas leakage might be an issue here, if so I believe it easily can be solved with sealment in-between the bolt head and the breech wall.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Playing Devil's Advocate: black powder residue around the head of the screw will build up in the breech eventually weakening the barrel.

 

[Revolver.45]

Your enthusiasm is admirable. I'm sorry to be so negative about your ideas but what you have described in the above comment is a pipe bomb. Please re-think this whole project. I fear you are going to do serious bodily injury to yourself or someone near by.

Dave

If I proof the gun I will do it from a distance. Is it the strength of the threads that you doubt or the barrel itself? A .433 roundball weights only 122 grains, so two of them weights 244 grains which is equvialent to a .55 roundball. In comparison the heaviest .45 colt bullet weights 360 grains.

I have an idea of drilling the touch hole at the breech end, however if I do so the threads will be the only attachment that will prevent the barrel from blowing apart from the receiver (from the pressure escaping through the touch hole). The barrels (and their threading) will be made out of quenched and tempered 4340 steel, which is the kind of high stength steel that are used for bolts, and many other things that requires toughness. It’s used in modern firearms too. 4340 has a higher tensile strength compared with the more common 4140 (generally speaking, it also depends on the type). I’ll use class 12 nuts which are the strongest available, and made of a similar steel alloy.

I believe that a 0.06” hole, despite being small, can release a lot of pressure. If I drill the hole at the breech I might be able to prevent gas leakage - it will be sealed at the breech like a modern cartridge gun. Otherwise I’ll put the touch hole at the side of the barrel instead, as in my original design, and pressure will vent through it like in a flintlock, or a muzzleloaded cannon. However, will a 0.06” vent hole make a measurable pressure loss with a black powder load in a 3” barrel? If so, can it simply be compensated with more powder?

I wounder what’s the optimal load for a barrel that short? If over loaded with BP most of the powder will burn outside of the barrel anyway, which won’t gain the velocity of the bullet.

 

[arcticap]

However, will a 0.06” vent hole make a measurable pressure loss with a black powder load in a 3” barrel? If so, can it simply be compensated with more powder?
I wounder what’s the optimal load for a barrel that short? If over loaded with BP most of the powder will burn outside of the barrel anyway, which won’t gain the velocity of the bullet.

About 40 grains of 3F powder in a 3 inch .45 Derringer loaded with a ball can penetrate 4 jugs of water. --->>> https://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-66-shooting-a-black-powder-pistol/

Here's a casting resin from Alumilite named Alumires RC-3 Black ------- 32 ozs. costs $36.
This super hard resin can be used to mold custom steering wheels over a metal frame as an example of its strength.
The 2 liquids are simply mixed and poured into a mold of basically any shape, or to make custom parts or products.
With enough planning a person could mold a section of a gun with it. --->>> https://www.alumilite.com/resins/alumires-rc-3-black/
There's several videos about it on different pages of the website.

 

[AlexanderA]

The more the OP posts his ever-evolving plans, the worse it gets. Just trying to follow this is giving me a headache. My only advice at this point is for him to quit this while he's ahead.

Or just get a kit for a simple muzzleloading pistol and learn the basics first.

 

[Dave T]

I keep imagining the OP building this thing, proof testing it and thinking all is good. Then on the 2nd, or 10th, or 21st time he shoots it the thing becomes a pipe bomb and he looses a finger, a hand, or an eye. Or maybe one of his friends watching gets hit by a flying bit of steel and is seriously injured.

I have tried to convince him to give up but he doesn't want to hear it. I'm done with this thread.

Dave

 

[StrawHat]

The idea of a bolt through the end of the barrel is not worth pursuing. Rather, bore into the barrel from the breech end and thread that hole. Run the breech plug in until it bottom against the shoulder in the hole. It is the way it has been done for a couple of centuries.

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

I keep imagining the OP building this thing, proof testing it and thinking all is good. Then on the 2nd, or 10th, or 21st time he shoots it the thing becomes a pipe bomb and he looses a finger, a hand, or an eye. Or maybe one of his friends watching gets hit by a flying bit of steel and is seriously injured.

I have tried to convince him to give up but he doesn't want to hear it. I'm done with this thread.

Dave

Dave,

So, all of those who build muzzleloading rifles are building pipe bombs? This country does not require any firearm to pass a proof test. There is no national (nor state) proof standards. While I do not see a practical application to this particular design, I do not wish this fellow to be discouraged. Rather, I would guide him to safe practices that will benefit him into the future.

Kevin

 

[woodnbow]

The idea of a bolt through the end of the barrel is not worth pursuing. Rather, bore into the barrel from the breech end and thread that hole. Run the breech plug in until it bottom against the shoulder in the hole. It is the way it has been done for a couple of centuries.

Kevin

I believe he has access to a lathe and now intends to turn threads on the breach end of the bar stock before boring the other end.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

With all due respect,
Not every concept mentioned in this thread is ridiculous but plenty seem to be.
I would not encourage anyone to follow the path that appears to be being laid.

 

[arcticap]

There's quite a few videos about how to use silver solder on youtube.