Verbal commands in an extreme situation?

[sacp81170a]

"Get back!" tells him you aren't comfortable with him being close to you.

But if said loudly enough, it draws the attention of any witnesses nearby. This may or may not help, but it's a factor.

But it does not communicate to him what you are prepared to do if he continues making you feel uncomfortable.

Agreed, simply standing there yelling "Get back!" only makes you look fearful. Taking a bladed position, moving your weapon side out of his easy reach, stepping diagonally back and away, putting something between yourself and the VCA are all vitally important parts of the message. By making it harder for him to lay hands on you and get at what might be a weapon you are preparing to draw, you send a clear message as to what you are preparing to do. That's why I say just verbal commands with no tactical movement and positioning are far less likely to be effective.

Roughly 90% of communication has nothing to do with the words we use. How might we be able to communicate to a violent predator, in ways that he understands and respects, that we are not an easy lunch?

Exactly. Practice the whole package.

The bluff has been called. What's next?

Extend, neutralize his actions by creating reactionary distance... run away! Ready your weapons. If only contact weapons have been presented now's the time to use OC if you have it. If he can't touch you, he can't hurt you, unless he has a gun. Even then, distance is your friend.

What you're discussing is exploring ways to encourage the Criminal Actor to form restraining judgements, provided he's willing to doing so. The way we can accomplish this is to develop ways to announce and communicate to the VCA, in language that he understands, that we:

Recognize him for who he is and what he's about to do;
We are prepared to effectively respond and resist him;
In a fashion that appears both strong and comfortable, and not as a bluff.

As always, by putting him at a tactical disadvantage by moving to a position of advantage yourself, you seize the initiative from him. Move to put something, anything you can, between you, whether it's a car, a garbage can or a light post. If you can't find anything, circle to his weak side if you can tell which side that is.

Having your tape loop running along with your feet tells him you haven't frozen in fear and that he may very well have something to fear himself. Use a firm but not strained voice, and always watch the hands.

Moving targets are much harder to hit.

ETA:

As always, circumstances will dictate your actions. Verbal commands might not be an option. Oh, one other thing: Get thee to some force on force training and thou shalt learn what works.

 

[eatont9999]

I like the quiet smile. Someday I will try it.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Quality FoF training quickly dispells many myths Practitioners develop.

So do candid conversations with criminals.


From playing the role of a VCA in Force on Force training, I can tell you I'm much more unnerved by the quiet smile and comfortable, "I'm your huckleberry" persona than anything else.

 

[MiddleAgedKen]

More perhaps for the benefit of other witnesses (as BullfrogKen points out, the point may be lost or wasted on the criminal), but how about: "Stop this criminal act!"

 

[Treo]

This may not exactly apply to this situation but I think its close enough to mention. When I was in the army I saw a lot of what I call "brain freeze" what I'm talking about is that half second of disbelief when confronted W/ a crisis . I saw it mostly in medical companies where the medics ( including myself) would train & train & train for a given situation then when somebody actually had a heart attack during P.T. look right at the patient and tell yourself this isn't really happening. That half second of disbelief can cost your life in a situation such as is being presented here.

 

[sacp81170a]

From playing the role of a VCA in Force on Force training, I can tell you I'm much more unnerved by the quiet smile and comfortable, "I'm your huckleberry" persona than anything else.

I have to qualify my statements with the fact that the majority of FoF training I've had has been within the LE role. There's a big difference between needing to take control of a situation as an officer vs. needing to avoid a VCA as a private citizen. Interesting observation... Thanks, BullfrogKen. 'nother tool for the box...

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well, the training an Officer recieves and the training designed an armed citizen sometimes have overlap. But one area they rarely have any overlap is in FoF training. The fact that an Officer comes to the scene with a duty to perform changes the dynamic. Also, rarely will Officers find themselves in the scenarios an armed citizen will find himself on the street, unless it occurs in off-duty hours.

Officers are rarely targeted for a mugging. In rare instances might one be targeted for a killing. Since Officers of the law rarely see these kinds of interactions develop and play out real time, any contribution from personal experiences or department training has limited value.

Officers train with the goal of bringing a suspect into custody. Officers often arrive in response to a call requesting their presence, and the suspects by that time are identified. That duty component changes the dynamics entirely.

Armed citizens train to avoid confrontations; when avoidance is no longer possible, the training aims solely at survival. Bringing the suspect into custody and control is not the armed citizen's goal. This, and the nature of the interaction, makes police training largely irrelevant for the citizen population.

Officers have authority under the law to issue and demand compliance with lawful demands. Citizens have much less latitude to require compliance with their demands. Additionally, the dynamic of officer presence is missing from criminal upon citizen crimes. An officer issuing a command is entirely different in every respect from a citizen issuing one. A suspect resisting or replying "Or what?" to an order from an Officer to get on the ground will find his day just got much worse. And so long as those Officer's actions are appropriate to the circumstances, they will be considered justified.

A citizen does not have those options. A citizen may have to determine if the person occluding his path and pressuring him for directions is just a rude person, or is in fact a criminal engaging in a ruse to spring his attack. Officers rarely have that encounter.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Totally useless in the real world but all I can think of is Steve Martin in Roxanne.

"I like your shoes"
"Huh?"
"I said I like your shoes, but as much as I like your shoes I wouldn't want to be IN your shoes just now".
(he then proceeds to wallop the heck out of the guy with a tennis racket).

 

[Superlite27]

I would reccommend a loud "GET DOWN!".

An attacker hearing this will potentially receive the idea to stop whatever threatening act he is performing, and get on the ground.

A witness hearing this will potentially receive the idea to stop gawking and get on the ground as well.

The words "GET DOWN" are easily understood by all, can't be mistaken for too many other commands, don't take a long time to utter and interpret the meaning of (very succinct), and can possibly be interpreted as a warning.

Anyone in the area who obeys this command will probably be better off in the long run. Witness and crook alike. Nobody can honestly say afterwards that you said "I'm going to kill you, you %$#^& son of a ^%^&%!"

 

[rainbowbob]

I would reccommend a loud "GET DOWN!".

I like that simple instruction and it is, as Superlite points out, easy to understand and is useful advice for both the adversary and any bystanders.

 

[Cosmoline]

In the immortal words of Tuco "If you're going to shoot, shoot, don't talk."

Verbal commands in general are much more relevant to police work than a civilian's self defense. You want the threat gone, you don't want a debate and you're not trying to stop a fleeing suspect or arrest anyone. I would not recommend getting into some mantra. You can certainly say something to help flesh out an ambiguous situation, but if you're facing imminent deadly force don't putz around or you'll be dead.

"GET DOWN"

Why do you want him to get down anyway? He can still shoot you from prone, you know. Unless you're a trained officer and know what you're doing that's not a bull you should try to ride. If he comes at you armed, shoot him. If he drops iron and high tails it, don't. Simple.

If you yell anythingk it should be prior to the display of deadly force and should be a simple command to get back and leave you alone. You don't want him to get down or assume any positions.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Step back and think about the possible scenarios you are envisioning. Ask yourself these questions:

What are you trying to accomplish with your verbal commands?
What stages along the confrontation are you looking to address with these verbal commands?


You seem to be envisioning the type of fight that we might encounter out on the streets - the non-specific encounter. Not the fight brought into your home like a home invasion. Not the fight that a disgruntled employee brings into the workplace. But rather those times when you are approached in the middle of your daily activities and some person, or group of persons, puts you through the classic "interview" to evaluate you for a robbery.

There are distinct stages to fights. That non-specific encounter might begin with a ruse, "What time is it?" "Where is the nearest bus stop?" But it will be clear from the delivery and approach that person or group has no interest in the time or the bus schedule.

During the early stages of the fight, the interview stage, verbal commands might be effective. But only to a certain extent. Other than communicate that you are nervous as hell, what effectiveness will, "GET DOWN!" have in this stage?

If you failed to dissuade your attackers during the interview, you will see some very distinct pre-fight indicators. They may only last for a second before weapons are produced and demands made. At this stage the encounter has gone beyond the time for words. If you're going to resist, words won't have any effect. Drawing while shouting, "GET DOWN!" might sound nice in classroom discussions. I suggest whatever you might say at this point is irrelevant.

In the conclusion of the fight, verbal commands can be very effective. But I would submit that if there were witnesses during a street encounter, and they actually hung around after blows were exchanged, they might not be entirely uninvolved. Robbing a public place - resturaunt or bank - the VCA's will have their own plan on how to control the crowd. In a street encounter, the time and place will be selected that minimizes bystanders. You might want to consider the possibility that those witnesses you're looking to endear yourself to might just be counted among the +1.

Verbal commands after blows were exchanged are hard to memorize in tape loop format. The possibilities of what can happen are too varied. Instead, seek out activities that will train your mind to stay focused and disciplined to act appropriately in those conditions. You need to communicate, not issue commands.

 

[Geronimo45]

People have different reactions to emergencies (and apparent emergencies), as seen in this thread. Mine is to say nothing at all... or next to nothing ("get the water hose") and resolve the problem then and there (preferably using brute force, usually involving running towards or stomping on). Verbal commands might work... but I get the notion (from this thread) that they're more for witnesses than BGs, except in situations that don't require immediate action.

 

[rainbowbob]

The possibilities of what can happen are too varied. Instead, seek out activities that will train your mind to stay focused and disciplined to act appropriately in those conditions.

Good post, Ken.

I had a most extraordinary experience this Saturday at a class taught by a couple of fine LEOs who have been there. The class was designed to instruct what to do - and not do - if you find yourself there.

It finished with a workout on an interactive training simulator with civilian type scenarios in which you must make shoot/no shoot decisions.

Each student got to do two scenarios. Both times I found myself watching and listening intently, saying nothing, and shooting instantly when a weapon was presented.

It was amazing how real it seemed, even though it was just a wall-sized video game. I would have been shouting at a screen, but I know I was much more interested in listening than talking. Time slowed down and I was real busy working the problem until the bad guy stopped attacking.

 

[sacp81170a]

Going back to the police area, we have a Sheriff's Deputy who very nearly lost his job and spent a good 8 months on suspension while the court case played out precisely because he had no chance to verbalize. A VCA in a stolen van had crashed in the yard of a house on a rural two lane highway near here after a pursuit through two towns. The deputy exited his vehicle to render aid and the VCA approached him with one of those tire repair tools that you push into the puncture with a rubber plug. It has a T handle and, at about 5 inches long, would punch through a vest like there was nothing there. The deputy said the the VCA rushed at him growling and the deputy killed him with a single shot to the center of the chest with a .357 revolver (this was about 15 years ago). The homeowner, a retired man, testified that the deputy had simply pulled his gun and shot the man, of course not seeing the tire repair tool in the BG's hand.

According to the deputy, it all happened so fast that he had no time to think, much less time to verbalize or do anything but draw and shoot or else he would have been seriously injured or dead. So the folks who are saying "if you're going to shoot, shoot, don't talk" are right in some situations. If the deputy had had time to issue any commands, it might have made his case an easier one. I would say that issuing simple, straightforward commands like "Get back!" is a good thing if you have time. Far more important is training yourself not to go into brainlock and freeze in your tracks at the critical moment. Movement, getting off the X and using your situational awareness to avoid the attack are all more important skills. If you get to the point that you need to shout commands, you've already made some serious mistakes(in a non-law enforcement situation, that is).

 

[Old Guy]

What worked

I work in a high risk location, a store, close to a very nasty part of town 50 yards from our rear door (locked all the time door) we are armed in uniform, Security Officers here in Florida, not Guards.

We only open the rear door to take garbage to our dumpster (and only in daylight) it lives in a 3 sided walled enclosure, with two doors on the front, that work, mostly one is open. The staff carry the bags, I get to carry the holstered, visible, 9mm pistol!

One of the sales guys decided, that the outside lights should come on in the dark! good idea! So we drove around in the marked patrol vehicle, did not use the back door, to the metal control box that controlled the lights, we knew it did that, we did not know how it did it! Which box is about 10m from the dumpster, Rob opened the box, I stood a bit off to one side, my back to him.

Noise from dumpster! feet appear at gap of door, one was open, out comes a 6ft tall fit looking White Male, approx; 35 YOA, some missing teeth.

"I was looking for a battery for my cell phone" he said, "That's OK" I said, "but it might not work, people don't throw good ones away"

Just two guys talking, no excitement, it is still a free country, plus I had nothing else to do. He asked where I was from, my English accent, I told him, he started to move toward me, I put my left hand up, "Stop" I said, he did.

"I just wanted to shake your hand" he said, I told him my reason for being there did not have anything to do with his dumpster, so on your bike.

"I will try the other dumpster" 100m away, "Have a nice day" I said, and off he went. He was pleasant, clean looking, I could see his hands, but he was definitely dancing to a different drummer!
This encounter did not cause me any concern (I had the 16 rounds ready to go!) just an other meeting with the people who live around the store, the store sales man was a bit concerned, talked about the guy "HIDING!" in the dumpster all day.

Oh, and yes, the lights outside come on every night now, no not at the time it was set at! but just at dusk.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Ken is right about the variables.

What do you folks who want to cry "Cop" plan on doing if the guy you're drawing on yells "Cop" too?

 

[Treo]

{Deleted by moderator}

 

[bcp]

And then, after the shooting is over, you find out he doesn't speak or understand English.



Bruce

 

[rainbowbob]

bcp: Good point. Although I'd bet most folks understand "STOP I'LL SHOOT!"

 

[bogie]

I dunno...

Any correctional officers here? What commands are convicts conditioned to obey? I'd think that "Down!" would be understood pretty darn rapidly by those who are used to assuming the prone prior to being handcuffed...

 

[bcp]

bcp: Good point. Although I'd bet most folks understand "STOP I'LL SHOOT!"

If I heard it in Russian, for example, I'd only know someone was yelling at me.

Lots of Russian, Ukrainian, etc. non-English-speaking immigrants around here.

Bruce

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I would reccommend a loud "GET DOWN!".

That would work especially well with James Brown.

 

[takhtakaal]

I would reccommend a loud "GET DOWN!".

That would work especially well with James Brown.

SUBJECT, GET DOWN! DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT GET ON UP, DO NOT GET ON UP LIKE A SEX MACHINE, OR WE WILL SHOOT YOU!

 

[wheelgunslinger]

HA! That's too much takhtakaal!

"GET DOWN! I SAID GET DOWN WITH YOUR BAD SELF!!!"