Verbal commands in an extreme situation?

[Markbo]

Hmmmmm... tellling an attacker... someone who you think means you grave bodily harm to get back - so that he knows you are uncomfortable... does what?

Might as well tell him your Jock itch is bothering you while you're at it. If it is just an uncomfortable situation, you are a LONG way from firearms. If you are already in fear of your safety, he KNOWS you are uncomfortable... and he doesn't give a shiite! In fact, BG's LOVE the fact that you are uncomfortable, because it makes them feel powerful.

Uncomfortable: "Excuse me... would you mind backing off a little... you are kind of in my personal space buddy!"

Unsafe: "Back off or I'll blow your f%&$*ing head off!!" (with gun drawn and aimed directly at said BG's face)

If you are uncomfortable, a nice word will do. If you are unsafe, distance (space) is your friend. Personally I believe he will be all to aware that I am uncomfortable BECAUSE I have a gun drawn; I am now in 'defend myself at all necessary costs' mode and if he does not recognize that, it is to his own detriment. He will back off, I will be able to back off or there very likely could be a stoppage of a threat with any forward movement on his part.

Anyway... my non LEO opinion. Now about Ayoob's course... is that a live course or video or what? I have never heard about it before.

 

[sacp81170a]

Hmmmmm... tellling an attacker... someone who you think means you grave bodily harm to get back - so that he knows you are uncomfortable... does what?

We're really skipping over a lot of things here when it comes to the process leading up to a criminal attack. There are all kinds of "interviews" where the VCA is making up his mind whether 1) attacking you is worth it and 2) his chances of success. You can avoid #1 by not wearing flashy clothes, flashing wads of cash, staying out of stupid places, etc. #2 is another problem entirely and your actions will be dictated by the type of interview, your perceived (by the VCA) state of awareness and readiness to defend yourself, the presence of reinforcements (yours or his), etc., etc.

Here's a good site with loads of information. Do some research, game some scenarios, and make up your own mind. I think the OP was really concerned about some discussion and ideas on the subject, not a blanket endorsement of whether or not you should give verbal commands. I don't think anyone who is honest can say you always should or should not. What works for one person in a particular situation may not work for someone else in the same situation.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

 

[rainbowbob]

I think the OP was really concerned about some discussion and ideas on the subject...

Precisely! [the OP]

As someone mentioned, we have have been mostly focused on "street" situations. I am also interested in hearing more about in-home situations.

In an earlier post, I described the session I had on an interactive shoot/no shoot video trainer. Those scenarios were mostly in and around the home. In one of the scenarios I was presented with, my front door was rattling, then a stranger appeared in the opened door and started saying he had run out of gas, etc...and then shot at me! I was able to get a couple in him - but it's hard to say if I "survived" the encounter (since the device does not actually "shoot" back).

My point is, I felt like a real dumbass for doing anything but shooting the moment he appeared uninvited in my doorway. I should also mention that the narrator had said their was a shooter loose in the neighborhood and everyone had been advised to lock their doors and stay inside. And I'm listening to this jamoke go on about car problems! Dumbass!

In another scenario, one of the other players was faced with an intruder rattling his bedroom window. He then moves on to the back door which he enters and attacks with a knife. In that one, shouting "GET AWAY! I'VE GOT A GUN!" might have ended the threat before it had escalated.

Any thoughts?

P.S. I feel good!...Papa's got a brand new bang!

 

[sacp81170a]

Those scenarios were mostly in and around the home. In one of the scenarios I was presented with, my front door was rattling, then a stranger appeared in the opened door and started saying he had run out of gas, etc...and then shot at me!

Heh, that's one problem with video scenarios, they limit your responses. If someone knocks on my front door they've first had to get past my dogs. If they have, I know it's someone I and the dogs know, but I still check the CCTV hidden under the eave of the house above and off to the side of the front door.

I did have one lady in a CCW class who was interviewed by a suspicious character walking down their rural dirt road carrying a guitar case. He didn't come in the front gate because their (big, mean)dog was going nuts barking at him. She looked out the front door and he yelled for her to call the dog off. She asked him what he wanted and he said he needed for her to take him to a gas station. She replied that she couldn't and that she could call someone for him. He continued to try and get her to call the dog off, but she had a creepy feeling and, being home alone, simply didn't acknowledge his requests. She then told him that she had called the sheriff and that they would be along shortly to give him a ride. At this, the BG took off down the road without saying another word. The only thing she didn't do correctly was arm herself, since her husband hadn't trained her how to use his guns. That's why she was in my class.

Several points:

Once I told her about criminal interviews, she realized that's exactly what had happened.

She went with her gut feeling. The dog knew something wasn't right and it made her more nervous. Trust your dog. I've had several who were better judges of character than I am.

She kept her position of advantage, didn't exit the house, didn't give the BG an opening.

She took action, but not the action the BG was expecting or wanted her to take.

At the threat of even a minimal chance of discovery, he took to his heels.

When something like this happens, the great majority of people who never thought about it realize that having a gun and knowing how to use it is a good thing.

P.S. I feel good!...Papa's got a brand new bang!

What kind?

 

[rainbowbob]

P.S. I feel good!...Papa's got a brand new bang!...

...What kind?

Actually I wrote that only because it seemed like a good play on the James Brown theme that was developing here. However, my CCW is relatively new to me (5 months) and is a vintage Chief's Special .38 snub with checkered wood stocks and a T-Grip in a Mika pocket holster.

Once I told her about criminal interviews, she realized that's exactly what had happened.

That is a good way of putting it. I and my dog were "interviewed" a couple of weeks ago by a pair of zombies in an old truck trying to sell meat they hadn't been able to deliver to my neighbor. Yeah, right! "What kind of dog is that?"..."I'll sell you some real nice steaks for $5."... "How about some chicken?"...

[Me] "How about backing on down the driveway like you came in?"

 

[UnknownSailor]

When I went to my first sleep in training class at Thunder Ranch: Texas, we were instructed to verbalize when Presenting our pistol. Clint $ co. recommended something short, and most of us settled on something like "STOP!" or "DROP THE WEAPON!" Reasoning behind this: Verbal compliance commands are a level of force, and also let it be known to any potential witnesses that you are reacting to something that you perceive to be a deadly threat to yourself or someone else. Whoever got you started into your drawstroke just might comply when you bellow for them to stop, out of surprise if nothing else. If he or she does, you just might not have to add more holes than the OEM put in.

Myself, I can't see any fault to that line of reasoning, but later classes at Gunsite and other places didn't teach verbalization, so I've gotten out of practice.

 

[12smile]

I've tried to keep my drill simple and practice loudly over and over, knowing I'll be choked w/ adrenalin in a real situation.

3 parts.

Part 1) to back off the Bad Guy:

Left arm outstretched, palm up, Right hand on Pistol in Right Rear pocket, Pistol either in or out of holster. I back up facing BG creating distance, possibly finding cover.

Command is: BACK THE ____ UP!!! BACK THE ____ UP!!!

Part 2) Verbal warning of intent to STOP

if attacker persues after I've retreated, the weapon is aimed COM and the Command becomes:

SHOOT TO STOP!!! SHOOT TO STOP!!!

Part 3) The Stopping.
If the attacker advances at this point he is stopped.
BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG 4 rapid pulls of the trigger and a reassesment of the threat.

I'm sure the "Shoot to stop" chant sounds odd to a professional but it's what I've come up with on my own...as if it's FOR ME to hear....like I'm giving myself a cue to shoot instead of freezing...

I've become a very cautious man and a very polite driver since I've started carrying a pistol.

 

[Old Guy]

NYPD/Verbal

A few years ago I was brought into a discussion with a Deputy Police Chief, My training unit (Firearms) wants to introduce a verbal command they had dreamed up, he said.
Why re-invent the wheel I said, NYPD had a great one

Police, Don't move

Really good, if they were moving it said stop, if they were not moving, it says do not.

Most of my students were ATM employees, so I taught Don't move! only. BUT really LOUD!
This was practiced on the range, words only/words and gun at 45deg/words and gun pointing/words and gun firing!

 

[SlipperyShooter]

No Way

The last thing I need during the inevitable trial that will follow the use of a firearm is the charge of "impersonating a police officer."

I would yell "Armed Citizen. Stop or I'll shoot."

If possible, I would also extend one of my hands into a "STOP" gesture so that I can say I used "all communication means available" in an effort to stop the attack.

 

[sacp81170a]

I agree with those who are saying don't yell "Cop!" or "Police!" if you're not. Keep it simple, don't complicate it even with "Armed Citizen!"

One incident that I have related before was with a scruffy looking character in a parking lot. He seemed to take offense that I had pulled into the parking spot he was speeding to get to from across the lot of a grocery store. As I was pulling in(I hadn't seen him before), he drove by yelling something unintelligible. He parked all of 10 feet farther away from the front door of the store a couple of rows over, got out and started toward me yelling about "his" parking spot. I didn't yell, but stepped diagonally back around the side of my car, bladed my body, right foot forward and placed my left(shooting) hand on my hip on the side away from him. After taking these actions, I said, "You need to step back!" in a firm voice while looking him in the eye and keeping my peripheral vision on his hands.

It was like turning off a light switch. His jaws snapped shut, his hands dropped to his sides, he turned on his heel and headed for the door to the store, glancing back in my direction occasionally. As I was in the store shopping, I noticed that he would see me and avoid being in the same aisle with me. He also studiously avoided eye contact with me. As I approached the register after picking up a few items, I noticed that he was raising a ruckus with the cashier. When he saw me, he abruptly left, leaving his items at the register. I asked the cashier what was going on and she said that he was arguing over prices with her and in general making an ass of himself, but left when he saw me coming.

I've always wondered whether I foiled a strongarm robbery that day just by my presence. I was in street clothes but I've had friends tell me that I look too much like a cop, so I'm sure this guy could tell. The cashier sure seemed relieved when he left.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Sacp, I'd wager that your actions spoke louder than your words.
Great example of how you can actually take control of a situation instead of just being reactive.

 

[sacp81170a]

Great example of how you can actually take control of a situation instead of just being reactive.

Well, not that great, actually. I had gotten pretty lax about carrying everywhere and I was "just going to the store for a minute". Heh, when I put my hand on my hip I remembered that I had left my gun at home. I was smart enough to not let my consternation show, but I have carried every day religiously from that day (about 5-6 years ago) to this. Remember kids, there's no excuse for not having your gun with you. Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Markbo]

I had a similar epiphany many years back when I was followed and terrorized by 3 young bucks coming home from a trip. Why they singled me out and wanted to play bumper tag and 'whip my ass' I still have no idea. Just because I was alone I guess.

I never forgot that feeling of "Why of all times do you NOT have your gun with you?"

 

[sacp81170a]

I never forgot that feeling of "Why of all times do you NOT have your gun with you?"

It only takes once.

 

[buzz_knox]

I never forgot that feeling of "Why of all times do you NOT have your gun with you?"

Mine was when two drunk "gentlemen" cornered me in my apartment parking lot. I talked my way out of the confrontation but without a weapon, I knew the only alternative was to die well.

 

[doc540]

Would someone address the physiological aspects of yelling loud commands while surging with adrenaline?

I'm just guessing, but it seems that with a limited amount of oxygen available using it expeditiously would be an advantage.

 

[sacp81170a]

Would someone address the physiological aspects of yelling loud commands while surging with adrenaline?

In Kendo we actually use kiai as a training tool. In kakari geiko you execute a set number of strikes moving forward and backward to either men (head) or do (abdomen) while doing one long drawn out kiai calling each point as it's struck. This is done for aerobic purposes and to teach you how to control your breathing and motion. In a match (shobu) a point is not valid unless you call it as you hit it. It builds concentration and encourages you to breathe while you're taking action.

Similarly, Col. Dave Grossman teaches combat breathing to fight the effects of stress before and after intense encounters. Not breathing correctly contributes to the physical and mental "lockup" experienced by people in stress situations. Putting all this together, simply making loud noises will help "unfreeze" you in a combat situation just because it forces you to breathe.

The Kendo people have been using kiai as a proven battlefield technique for, oh, about a thousand years or so. I think it has been proven to work in that time. Good question.

 

[KnightHawk67]

Ever heard a Drill Instructor give a command at full strength? Enough to stop a charging rhino I believe. That's the response you want. I don't know what I would say, but its going to come out loud & stong & with a ton of authority. Coupling that with a strong glare & body language, it should be enough to cause them to rethink their position. I can use that hesitation for whatever I need to do next.

 

[buzz_knox]

It builds concentration and encourages you to breathe while you're taking action.

Does it also encourage actually taking action? We often see people freeze up to the point that they can't even speak. It seems that taking any action, even yelling, helps to break through that moment.

 

[doc540]

"This is done for aerobic purposes and to teach you how to control your breathing and motion."

Yes, I can understand that, and can see how it could be effective when practiced in a disciplined, self defense routine.

Without practice and when not of a disciplined, self defense routine, might it be a depletion of resources and energy?

Just asking.

 

[sacp81170a]

Does it also encourage actually taking action? We often see people freeze up to the point that they can't even speak. It seems that taking any action, even yelling, helps to break through that moment.

Absolutely, IF you practice it with that in mind.

Without practice and when not of a disciplined, self defense routine, might it be a depletion of resources and energy?

It might be, but then why would you be carrying a gun if you aren't planning on practicing in a disciplined manner? As with any technique, instruction is a great help, but as Clint Smith says, "A gunfight is a bad time to be learning new techniques."

Ever heard a Drill Instructor give a command at full strength? Enough to stop a charging rhino I believe.

Exactly. Sheep don't roar.

 

[Killermonkey21]

I agree with a lot of whats been said. Strong verbal commands are going to save your ass when it comes down to afterwards.

Ask anyone who's dealt with locals here in Iraq. You're armed to the teeth. Have a loaded weapon pointed in their direction, and they don't care. You have to use loud, single syllable, words. They don't speak our language very well, but they know what "STOP!" means. Over here you have to know how to communicate if you want everyone to be able to go on living.

I highly suggest taking a class though. Over here you deal with enough stressful situations to get "adjusted" to it i guess, but the adrenalin still plays with your senses. Just be aware of your situation and try to let them know you mean business. Be confident. Be in control.

Just my $0.02 from the sandbox.

 

[rainbowbob]

They don't speak our language very well, but they know what "STOP!" means. Over here you have to know how to communicate if you want everyone to be able to go on living.

Killermonkey: That brings up a question I have been wondering about. Do the troops receive any training in the local lingo? The natives don't speak our language very well - but then - they aren't in our country.

It seems like it would be handy in an action where we are trying to "Win the hearts and minds of the people". Even simple stuff like "Stop!" or even "Thank you" would be a real tactical advantage I would think.

 

[doc540]

Thanks for doing your job, kmonk.

And keep your powder dry.

 

[bogie]

Well, again...

What commands do correctional officers generally use?

If the lowlife is already used to obeying one, that's half the battle... Kinda like when you're leaving on vacation, but you still take the exit that takes you to work...