Vest pocket derringer replica or curio?

[Pocket]

I have been searching and really can't find that the vest pocket derringer in the picture is a replica of something that really existed. Any thoughts or background would be it helpful. It looks similar to the Colt derringers but I can't connect the dots.

 

[WestKentucky]

My understanding of that basic design is that Theur was a colt employee who designed the original gunof that style. It was a very early cartridge gun. Colt made different calibers of the design with few modifications and then dropped it. Butler made copies for colt fairly recent in 22 short. Others have copied it in 22lr. The traditions gunyou have is just another twist onthe design. I would classify it the same as a lot of the Colt revolvers which never really existed. Cool, fun, but not historically accurate.

I like my Butler in 22s but it will be drilled and relined this year at some point. Does traditions offer a holster? Nobody else does so I made one recently. It’s my first and it works but it’s ugly.

 

[Pocket]

By definition it looks like it falls under #3.
To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
   
   
2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
   
   
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
   

 

[daboyleroy]

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/colt-derringers-pocket-pistols/
Take a look at.....$$$$

 

[arcticap]

So it's a continuation of the "commercial evolution" of the Colt 4th Model Derringer which was introduced in 1959 and chambered in 22 short.
Since I needed to look it up for myself, I figured that I would post what I learned.

"Officially know as the Colt 3rd Model Derringer this pistol is more commonly referred to as the Colt Thuer Derringer after the weapon's designer, Alexander Thuer. The pistol has a brass frame which was either bare or nickel plated and a nickel plated or blued steel barrel. Although production of the pistol ceased in 1912, the externally similar Colt 4th Model Derringer chambered in .22 Short was released in 1959. This pistol had a frame and barrel made from Zamak (a cheap zinc alloy) and as standard were nickel plated or with a black oxide coated barrel. The 4th Model Derringer was mainly for display purposes (due to the soft alloy barrel with no liner) and was also sold in "Lord & Lady" matching boxed pairs. The "Lord" had a gold plated frame, black oxide coated barrel and walnut grips, whilst the "Lady" had gold plating on both the frame and barrel and had faux pearl grips."--->>> http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Colt_Thuer_Derringer

"Colt's Second Model Derringer was based on the design first manufactured by Moore Patent Firearms Co. and then the National Arms Co. before it was purchased by Colt in 1870. Colt continued to advertise it and their First Model Derringers as the "National Deringer." This example has flourishes of scroll engraving on the sides of the frame and behind the hammer and a small burst pattern at the breech. The markings and other features are standard."--->>> https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/69/281/colt-3rd-model-derringer

" MHG626 RARE NATIONAL ARMS COMPANY DERRINGER The marking on the top of the bbl is “National Arms Co Brooklyn N.Y.”. This is a single shot No. 2 derringer. These were only made for about 5 years right after the Civil War. Cal 41 RF 2-1/2″ bbl. This is the twist to load which is reminiscent of the Colt derringer. The reason is because Colt purchased National Arms and continued building on their patents. Could be called a pre-Colt derringer. Very rare and a good collectible gun."--->>> https://www.merzantiques.com/product/mhg626-rare-national-arms-company-derringer/

 

[Pocket]

That is good stuff Arcticap. So the .31 cal is not really a replica but more of a curio (by definition) of the 1st thru 3rd generation Colt derringers.

 

[ShotgunDave]

Pocket, what you have pictured there is muzzle loading version of the Thuer derringer. I'm not 100% certain but I don't think they ever existed in the 19th century when the Colt/Thuer was new.

I think these modern muzzle loading versions, were put out by companies like Traditions for the interest of us black powder shooters. The tell tale sign that it's a muzzle loader, is the ram rod under the barrel.

 

[arcticap]

You mean that the NAA .22 mini C&B and the 1860 Earl C&B weren't really real?

 

[expat_alaska]

The tell tale sign that it's a muzzle loader, is the ram rod under the barrel.

Oh, Really! I know you are specifying NAA but you need to go a bit farther.

 

[Pocket]

That looks kinda like the screw barrel type.

 

[ThomasT]

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/colt-derringers-pocket-pistols/
Take a look at.....$$$$

I went to Collector Firearms way back around 2004. They are high. Like $900 for a Hi-Point 9mm used.

Just kidding. I think their motto is "You can't pay more". And they are right. You can't.

 

[kilizyrag]

My Colt Derringer.

 

[midland man]

My Colt Derringer.
View attachment 824405
View attachment 824406

I always wanted one of those!!

 

[WestKentucky]

I always wanted one of those!!

They are not too expensive...but they are far from being worth the money.

 

[ShotgunDave]

Arcticap and Jim, I guess I was unclear. I meant that the picture that the OP posted, has the tell tale sign of the ramrod hanging from under the barrel. Which the original Colt/Thuer did not have. It was added by the current manufacturer of the arm, so it can be loaded easier. Because the gun pictured is indeed a muzzle loader. You put powder and ball down the muzzle and ram it home. Then tilt the breech open and cap the nipple. Close the breech and fire the pistol.

I did not mean that the NAA pistols are not real. I'm not sure where that even came from actually. When I said "Modern muzzle loading version" I was referring to the modern muzzle loading version of the Colt/Thuer. Phew! I hope that clears it up! LOL!

 

[arcticap]

I think that I was jokingly replying to Pocket when he said that "So the .31 cal is not really a replica but more of a curio".
A lot of guns are curios, even though the NAA's do bear a faint resemblance to other guns of the period.
They even named the Earl an 1860 instead of an 1858 which it's not even an open top, and it clearly has a Remington style loading lever.
So even the name is filled with irony.
And the NAA mini .22 slightly resembles a Colt .22 mini revolver.
You know, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but it's not a duck then it must be resurrected as a cap & ball gun to become an instant antique firearm under Federal law.
Other examples are the Pietta 1873 C&B revolver that Uberti named the 1873 Cattleman.

 

[Pocket]

This has become a good thread. The Traditions derringer seems like it is based off of the "Moore" "derringer that came out around 1861 to 1865. However it was a rim fire. The percussion aspect qualifies the Traditions derringer as "black Powder Curio/ Replica" like Arcticap noted.

Daniel Moore patented a single shot metallic cartridge .38 Rimfire derringer in 1861. These pistols had barrels that pivoted sideways on the frame to allow access to the breech for reloading. Moore would manufacture them until 1865, when he sold out to National Arms Company, which produced single shot .41 Rimfire derringers until 1870, when it was acquired by Colt's Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company.

 

[paul harm]

I had a set of Lady and Gent Colts - sorry I ever sold them.

 

[WestKentucky]

This has become a good thread. The Traditions derringer seems like it is based off of the "Moore" "derringer that came out around 1861 to 1865. However it was a rim fire. The percussion aspect qualifies the Traditions derringer as "black Powder Curio/ Replica" like Arcticap noted.

Daniel Moore patented a single shot metallic cartridge .38 Rimfire derringer in 1861. These pistols had barrels that pivoted sideways on the frame to allow access to the breech for reloading. Moore would manufacture them until 1865, when he sold out to National Arms Company, which produced single shot .41 Rimfire derringers until 1870, when it was acquired by Colt's Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company.

I thought that the Moore design was essentially half of a “twist pistol” and had a lower lug on which the barrel rolled in and out of battery. The support/locking system for the two guns looks very similar though, a thin piece of flat material sliding into place in a recessed portion of the frame.

I have wondered recently why nobody is making a Moore twist type pistol because it would be quite easy to make a swap-barrel system with multiple calibers and only have 1 screw to swap the barrels.

 

[Gordon]

I think the .36 and larger short barrel , drop rigger screw barrel pistols with rounded smaller stocks are a great little derringer gun. If I lived back then I would want a couple to match a couple revolvers , I have that now .