Walk of Shame

[giggitygiggity]

Many bigger stores that sell guns have a procedure that can be summarized as follows:

1. Customer goes to sporting goods section of store and decides to buy a gun.

2. The customer and employee fill out the ATF 4473.

3. A background check is completed.

4. Upon being issued a “proceed” at the conclusion of the background check, the employee rings up the gun and the customer pays for the gun.

5. An employee, usually someone from management, then escorts (walk of shame) the customer to the store exit.

6. Upon exiting the store, the employee hands the gun to the customer.


Frankly, I find the whole practice of escorting a customer who just passed a background check to the exit to be dumb on numerous levels. That said, I’ve played the game many times for the sake of a good deal.

However, what if, after I pay for the gun, the employee says, “I need to walk you to the exit” and I say “No thank you. Please hand me my gun and I’ll walk myself out.” I am curious to learn from our resident attorneys if the store has any legal standing on which to deny a customer access to their gun after the customer pays.

It seems to me that if the store refused to hand over my gun after I pay and after having been being asked to do so that a case could be made against the employee and/or the store of stealing one’s personal property.

I think it gets to the technicality of when one actually owns something. Do I own the gun once I pay for it, once I exit the store, after 30 seconds have elapsed from the time of my transaction, after a day from the transaction, etc?

I am not trying to encourage others to give employees a difficult time as I know that most of them are simply doing their jobs when they conduct the walk of shame, but I am curious nonetheless.

Mods, I originally had this posted under the “Legal” section, but the moderator closed it sating that it is not really a legal discussion.

 

[pbearperry]

I have never experienced that.

 

[Spats McGee]

In the other thread, someone mentioned The Walk of Shame While Carrying. I've had to do that. Had to wait for the store employee to carry my .22LR rifle in and back out (had a scope put on) while I cc'd a 9mm. Liked the scope so much, I took a different .22 in the next day and did it all over again.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-Yet another reason that I am unlikely to buy a new firearm, especially at a big box store... .

 

[George P]

Walmart makes you wait 3 business days regardless of your state's law before they walk you out the door. I was wondering how they did with a customer before me who bought 12 of those closeout rifles. I don't get their logic; if they think after passing a BG check and having a CWFL and NOT buying ammo for the gun I just bought, that I am going to open fire in their store with a bolt action rifle, someone at Corporate has their head where the sun doesn't shine.
And even if I WAS going to do something like that, once I am out of the store, there is nothing to prevent me from going to my vehicle and grabbing some ammo and returning.

After the way I was treated, and with ZERO response or help after calling corporate, I am done shopping there anyway.

 

[mjsdwash]

the simple answer is this: You will be given your property, and asked to leave. Security will follow you out, and you may be asked not to come back. If you don't immediately and indestractidly leave, the police will be called and you reported an "armed trespasser". They do this because their underwriters see this as a two transaction situation. You buy a gun, and come back, its two transactions, there is nothing they can do. If you don't leave, they let a "gunmen" do what he wanted.... Its more about negligent discharge in public than crime. People play with their new stuff. The two transaction thing makes it harder for an accidentally injured bystander to claim negligence.

 

[Craig_AR]

I have purchased two handguns at Marine Corps Exchanges (MCX). Both involved not only the Walk of Shame to hand me the boxed gun outside the door, I also had to sign paperwork promising to immediately drive off the installation without any stops at other facilities, and further, to call to notify both the MCX manager and the installation security police prior to coming back if I needed to bring the gun back to the exchange for any reason.

 

[giggitygiggity]

Walmart makes you wait 3 business days regardless of your state's law before they walk you out the door. I was wondering how they did with a customer before me who bought 12 of those closeout rifles. I don't get their logic; if they think after passing a BG check and having a CWFL and NOT buying ammo for the gun I just bought, that I am going to open fire in their store with a bolt action rifle, someone at Corporate has their head where the sun doesn't shine.
And even if I WAS going to do something like that, once I am out of the store, there is nothing to prevent me from going to my vehicle and grabbing some ammo and returning.

After the way I was treated, and with ZERO response or help after calling corporate, I am done shopping there anyway.

I think that must be dependent on the Walmart’s location as I have bought from Walmart in NC, PA, and MO and never had a mandatory waiting period.

 

[Ernie Bass]

Seems like a big ado over nothing. Would not bother me a bit. Why would you be ashamed? I doubt anyone in the store gives a flying Fig and if so who cares what they think. And if you do not want to shop there then just go someplace else. They most likely do it for insurance reasons.

 

[Speedo66]

I guess you could also advise them you do not wish to be escorted out like a shoplifter.

You can walk out a minute or so ahead of the person carrying the gun, and meet them at the exit.

While that doesn't solve of issue of your ownership and who holds the gun, at least you don't look and feel like the person who has done something wrong and is being booted off the premises.

 

[giggitygiggity]

Seems like a big ado over nothing. Would not bother me a bit. Why would you be ashamed? I doubt anyone in the store gives a flying Fig and if so who cares what they think. And if you do not want to shop there then just go someplace else. They most likely do it for insurance reasons.

To be clear, I never said it was a “big ado” or anything of the sort. I do find the practice silly. It is commonly and jokingly referred to as a “walk of shame” because the act of escorting a customer out of the store who buys a gun is similar to what one might envision when someone shamefully attempts to shop-lift, is caught, and is then shamefully escorted out of the store.

The issue that I am looking to determine is what legal basis, if any, a store has to not immediately hand over the gun to the customer. Additionally, does the store place itself and it’s employees in a legal (both criminally and civilly) quagmire if the customer requests that the store personnel immediately handover the gun that they just paid for and the store personnel refuse to do so?

 

[rdnktrkr]

The one I went to lets you take it home that day, (no waiting period), management carries it out for you, they will not allow you to purchase ammo during a firearms transaction even if the ammo doesn't fit the gun and they will not allow you to return in the store with the firearm to purchase anything else (I tried) I didn't like the idea of everyone in the store and parking lot knew I had just purchased a firearm and me returning in the store. They lost the sale of the other items I wanted

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I don't think I've bought a gun at Walmart in 20 years. The last time I did they walked me to the door handed it to me and I left. It really wasn't that big of a deal. I would be willing to bet the person that's walking you out is only doing it because it's a job requirement.

Why would you want to make their life more difficult?

 

[giggitygiggity]

I don't think I've bought a gun at Walmart in 20 years. The last time I did they walked me to the door handed it to me and I left. It really wasn't that big of a deal. I would be willing to bet the person that's walking you out is only doing it because it's a job requirement.

Why would you want to make their life more difficult?

If your question is directed to me, I do not want to make anyone’s life more difficult and I even stated in the OP that “I am not trying to encourage others to give employees a difficult time as I know that most of them are simply doing their jobs when they conduct the walk of shame, but I am curious nonetheless.”

 

[Trunk Monkey]

If your question is directed to me, I do not want to make anyone’s life more difficult and I even stated in the OP that “I am not trying to encourage others to give employees a difficult time as I know that most of them are simply doing their jobs when they conduct the walk of shame, but I am curious nonetheless.”

If I ever buy another gun (really anywhere) at Walmart again and they want to walk me out the door I'm going to let them.

I don't get curious about things that have zero effect on my life

 

[George P]

As to the waiting period, I was told by the store manager and corporate that there is a 3 day period; supposedly nationwide; and that their internal computer system will not allow them to release the rifle until such time has passed.

 

[Ernie Bass]

I guess you could also advise them you do not wish to be escorted out like a shoplifter.

You can walk out a minute or so ahead of the person carrying the gun, and meet them at the exit.

While that doesn't solve of issue of your ownership and who holds the gun, at least you don't look and feel like the person who has done something wrong and is being booted off the premises.

Being in the Electronic alarm industry for years and viewing thousand of shop lifting videos on CCTV, I have never seen anyone escorted out for shoplifting, other than by Security and that is rare to begin with as most store policies are to not confront the shop lifter. In fact most will not even do this outside of the store as well. Two people walking to the door one a person that just bought a firearm and the other a store clerk and just chatting as they walk to the door and perhaps in normal times shake hands and pleasantries is a far cry from being escorted out like a thief or having been escorted out by the Local Police.
People like to bash Big Box stores like Cabela's Bass Pro shops etc. Constantly bashing the clerks and on an on. I just do not get it. But how about giving them credit for selling guns? Not like Dicks and other places. So they have a few policies. Maybe they should just stop selling them altogether. That will make many people very happy.

 

[ih772]

As to the waiting period, I was told by the store manager and corporate that there is a 3 day period; supposedly nationwide; and that their internal computer system will not allow them to release the rifle until such time has passed.

Last week I walked in and bought a shotgun and took it home with me in that same visit to the store. There wasn't any sort of waiting period.

 

[George P]

Good for you! Maybe it is a Florida thing.

 

[GEM]

I've been walked out to the door a couple of times. So, what? If I could have gotten out of the DMV at the same speed, I would have been overjoyed.

They might be worried about a suicide inside with gun, BTW.

 

[labnoti]

How about respecting the property rights of the store owners? You can already be sure they will give you your purchase, but will you respect their demand that you exit the store? They have the right to control trespass, and as was pointed out, they are doing just this because their risk management assessment has determined it as a solution to a potential liability on their part for having a direct role in arming a customer who could act negligently or criminally. There is nothing shameful about this. Although I appreciate how it seems superficially, there is nothing ironic about the fact that you may be armed anyway. The distinction is that the store did not directly and immediately participate in creating that condition.

What's shameful is people walking into any gun store carrying an uncased firearm and showing the person at the counter what's wrong with it while having neglected to unload it.

 

[jmr40]

I wouldn't be too hard on the big stores for doing this. I can walk into most mom & pop gun stores, fill out the 4473, have them make a photo copy of my drivers license and carry permit, pay and be out the door in 5 minutes. In GA having a carry permit allows you to skip the background check. But the anti-gun crowd isn't going to file a lawsuit against small gun shops if a gun they sold ends up being used in a crime in NYC. They WILL, and HAVE gone after bigger stores that have deeper pockets.

The walk of shame isn't to prevent the person who just purchased the gun from doing anything wrong, it is to prevent uneasy customers from seeing a shopper walking around in the store with a firearm.

Most of the bigger stores will have 3 or 4 different people review the 4473 and look at your license in order to check for errors. That takes time and is a PITA for customers. But if an error is made, (and they do happen), it will be used as evidence of neglect on the part of the store in a lawsuit.

One of the bigger stores in the Atlanta area was sued by NYC a few years ago because a lot of guns purchased there ended up being used in crimes.

https://www.adventureoutdoors.us/

The store never did anything illegal. They simply sell more guns than any place in Georgia. And at much better prices than anyone for hundreds of miles so it would be normal for more of their guns to turn up in crimes since they sell so many. As a result of the lawsuit it is an hour long process buying a gun there now. There are multiple checks, and you are given a document to read explaining what a straw purchase is that you have to sign stating that you understand and that you are not participating in a straw purchase.

Even though it is a PITA to buy from Walmart, I'd like to see Walmart continue to sell guns and would support them if they had something I wanted at a price I wanted to pay. With all of the legal hoops I'd not blame them at all if they got out of the firearms business, Cabelas either for that matter. But as long as guns are visible and sold in Walmart and other places by the general public they are accepted as a normal part of society. When they are only available in places not visited by the general public they are perceived as evil and bad.

There is no 3 day wait in any Walmart I've ever been in.

 

[WestKentucky]

I remember when K-Mart was going out of business a policy which I thought was silly at the time, but looking back now it was a much better process overall. 4473 was completed, background check ran, firearm was rang up and taken to customer service (just inside the front door) but before paying for the firearm the transaction was suspended in the computer system. A transaction slip was printed out containing information to get back into that transaction, and the customer was asked to finish the transaction at customer service. When I arrived at customer service they opened a register that did not have a line at it, took the slip, and finished the transaction there. I didn’t get my shotgun, nor did I pay for it until I was about 8 feet from the door, and it was an assistant manager or some such person in a higher role than stock clerk or cashier that did the final transaction. Not only did I finish the transaction as I left, I got to put the other handful of items on the same transaction and leave with all of my stuff at one time.

 

[AlexanderA]

I've never experienced this procedure. But then, the "big box" stores around here (Walmart, Dick's, etc.) don't sell guns. (Even when they did, they didn't have this procedure.)

Legally, the stores are within their rights. As a customer, you're an "invitee" who must abide by their rules. The store isn't a public area.

 

[entropy]

I have never experienced that.

You've haven't bought a gun at Walmart in recent years.
At least with the last one, I got to go out the back door. Since COVID, Associates have to park by and enter at the ACC [Auto Care Center]; they are being used on a very limited basis currently.

jmr40's post covers the subject very well.