Want to collect *and* shoot WW2 Rifles

[jondwright]

I had my garand cherry busted last Saturday, and I've been researching the CMP program all week. I'm close enough to make a journey there, and I plan to soon. I'm also trying to catch up on my WW2 rifle history, and I'm getting the impression that I could start WW2 collection reasonably cheap. Is this true?

What would be the rifle of choice from each of these countries? I'm not necessarily talking about your favorite, but the standard issue.

USA (Do I want the Garand for this collection, or the Carbine?)
Brittain
Germany
Russia

Where are the best places to buy these rifles cheap? This thought sprouted from a gentleman that said in another thread that you might get a Mosin, Mauser, and Enfield all for $300.

Sorry it's so long. Brief replies just fine!

 

[TexasRifleman]

As long as you stay away from the full-auto weapons, it's not too bad. If you're OK with shooting a reproduction, then even that arena is opened up to you.

I know you asked about other countries, but consider just the US and what's available.

I have now:
Garand
M1 Carbine
BAR (A3 semi version from Ohio Ordnance)
Thompson M1 (There is a guy in Colorado
that will take the current manufacture Kahr semis, and with a Form 1,
make a short barreled clone that is practically indistiguishable from the
real deal. As soon as ATF finished the Form 1 I get that one back.)

I do have a couple of class 3's that I bought back in the 80's before things went nuts, but I no longer shoot them. I have a "real" BAR and M1 Thompson but I shoot the semi's and they are still great fun and usually a lot more accurate.

So you CAN have an almost complete WWII collection if you're willing to go semi.

There are guys making Browning 1919 MGs, MG42's etc in semi autimatic as well. M3 grease guns, stens, sheesh. You name it.

A big portion of these repros are original parts, mainly it's the receiver and trigger group parts.

And, if you're gonna shoot instead of just collect and look at, your're not killing the value of a "genuine" WWII arm.

Just my opinion, but the collection looks great, and no one can tell, or cares, that some of them are semi.

Next on my list is a Browning 1919-A6 in semi. Come on tax refund

 

[jondwright]

Thanks Texas. I had planned on buying some reproduction stuff, if I'm right about what that means. I want to both display it AND shoot it, so I wouldn't want anything that shooting would cause its value to decrease.

I don't have much to spend, so I wanted to start with 1 from each of the 4 countries listed, then consider other guns and other countries. I wanted to make sure I knew definitevly what the starting point was. Basically, most commonly issued rifle. I guess if one was an automatic, I am out of luck... but where to go from there?

 

[jondwright]

Also Texas, if one gun represents USA and WW2, it would be the Garand right? Not the carbine?

 

[jnmullin]

If you really want to collect old surplus stuff, consider getting a C&R license. It will save a lot on transfer fees as well as getting you some pretty good discounts from Midway, Brownells, etc.

With a C&R, the prices for the guns you are looking for should run about:
Britain: No4 Mk1 Enfield $100-150
Germany: K98k Mauser ~$180-200
Russia: any of the Mosin Nagants should be less than $100

I am pretty sure AIM (aimsurplus.com) and Centerfire (centerfiresystems.com) have all of these in stock.

Also, consider getting one (or several) of the Swiss K31s. They are great shooters and are like $80 from AIM.

Hope this helps,
John

 

[jobu07]

You might look into a Carcano rifle. The Italians were a major player in the African and Southern European Axis operations. You usually seem the very cheap at gun shows too. Ammo might be a problem for shooting them, i'm not totally well versed in thier caliber, but it can make a nice addition to your collection.

 

[George S.]

Look into getting a BATF "C&R" license. This Curio and Relic license will allow you to purchase a wide variety of old weapons from vendors at much lower costs and a lot of the supply houses like Brownell's, Midway USA and such will even give you some very decent discounts on their catalog prices.

There is information about ho to get the license on the BARF website.

If there is a Big 5 Sporting Goods store in your area, they usually carry WWII era rifles likes the Mosins (91/30, M38, M44), Enfields, Turkish Mausers and a few others. They are all imports so they typically wil have the importer name stenciled into the metal with a new serial number, but for the most part they are all "shooters". Wait for each type to come on sale and go look at them.

Some may be rough, but occasionally you find nice examples. Last year, I found a 1931 hex receiver 91/30 with all matching numbers and it's in excellent condition. Paid all of $79.95 for it. It will shoot 6-8" groups at 200 yards which was the Russian standard for the basic infantry rifle at the time.

 

[TexasRifleman]

As for the Garand, absolutely that's the gun that represents the US.

The Carbine and Thompsons are cool, but the M1 Garand won that war....
Oh, when you hang around the old timers, no one calls it a Garand, it's just an M1

You say you want to start on a budget, but it will be a longtime addiction, and a very rewarding hobby.

All the guys saying get a C&R are right on the money also.

Good luck!

 

[jondwright]

Thanks for the advice, now I know where to start:

1. C&R
2. M1
3. Britain: No4 Mk1 Enfield
4. Germany: K98k Mauser
5. Russia: Mosin Nagants
6. Italy: Carcano

 

[Joe Demko]

I think the Japanese might also have been involved in WWII. If that turns out to be the case, you would want to add an Arisaka to that list.

 

[jobu07]

Touche` Joe You might have to add a 1917 enfield "eddystone" on the list as well. And then again, you need to throw on the venerable 1903 springfield because, well, just because. You'll want SMLE No1 Mk III enfield too!

 

[BenW]

Jon -- Your list plus what Joe said.

 

[jondwright]

1. C&R
2. M1
3. Britain: No4 Mk1 Enfield
4. Germany: K98k Mauser
5. Russia: Mosin Nagants
6. Italy: Carcano
7. Japan: Arisaka

I will probably get at least the first 5 before I start doubling up on one country by getting a

8. enfield "eddystone"
9. 1903 springfield
10. SMLE No1 Mk III enfield

*My C&R application is on the way.

 

[secluded]

Don't forget a few others such as the Swiss K31 (as already mentioned) and the Swedish Mausers. Both of these are known for their inherent accuracy and fine craftsmanship.

I got my C&R about 2 years ago, best $30.00 I ever spent.

You might want to also get a subscription to Shotgun News. It is about $30.00 a year but it comes out several times a month and the subscription arrives about a week before you can buy it at the newstand. If a supplier has a good price and/or low quanities that week can make a difference between getting one and missing out.

BTW - You'll also need a French MAS 36, Turkish Mauser, Persian Mauser, Steyr M95, 1903 Springfield, Yugo SKS, Albanian SKS, Russian SKS, SVT........(it never ends )

 

[jefnvk]

I have the main battle rifle from each of the Big 5 in WWII: US, Britain, Russia, Germany, Japan. Excluding the M1, it cost me $225 and an 870 Express.

The 91/30 came from a local Dunhams for $75.

The K98 was $150 at a local gunshop, although the barrel was cut back about a quarter of an inch by the previous owner. Its saving grace though is not only is it a German surplus, it is also an Iraqi surplus.

The Enfield and the Arisaka I got in a trade for the 870, along with me recieveing a 10/22. They both came from my dad's friend, whose dad brought the Arisaka back from Okinawa, and whose uncle brought the Enfield back from France. The Enfield was packed in a heavy grease (definitely not cosmo) for the past 50 years, so it is in great shape. The Arisaka is rough, and a very good gunsmith told me not to shoot it, so it won't be shot. It was actually a school trainer rifle, and included the original sling and bayonet, which are actually worth more than the rifle.

The M1 actually cost me more than the other rifles combined. I went to CMP to buy it, as I live about 3 hours away. I am so satisified with the service, next week I'll be making another pilgrammage to pick up an 03 Gotta start branching out into the lesser issued rifles now, which unfortunately is going to require much more money.

Huh, to answer your question now, 91/30 for the Russkies, No.4 for the Brits (which I believe also covers the Canadians), US RIFLE CAL .30 M1 for the good guys, a K98k for the Deutsch, and an Arisaka (38 or 99? I think both were equally used) for the Rising Sun Empire.

 

[Cosmoline]

Unfortunately you will find that US WWII era rifles are far and away the most expensive out there. An intact, uncut Springfield 1903 will run you three or four times what a similar Mauser-pattern rifle from another country would. Garands have gone from being deeply discounted to quite pricey. "Saving Private Ryan" bears quite a bit of the blame, along with the resurgence in WWII nostalgia in the US. A lot of rich boomers with no real interest in firearms still want to have a WWII era rifle to hang on the wall to remind them of pop.

We poor gen-x'ers have been left to scrounge the other nations, and let me tell you there's real gold in those mines. Consider Finnish Mosin-Nagants, for example. The chances of your Garand having actually seen combat are nearly zero. But you'll still have to pay $500 to $900 bucks for it (outside the CMP program). On the other hand you can get a Finnish Mosin from the Winter War/Continuation War era that actually saw the rough end of some of the 20th century's most brutal warfare for under $250. You can also find mint condition M-39's from later in the conflict for under $200. And frankly they are all better quality than the vaunted Springfields.

Not to dis the US, but frankly if you're on a budget it pays big time to focus on the overseas C&R rifles and limit your US collection to an old CMP Garand.

 

[Kingson]

You might want to change the title of this thread from "Want to collect *and* shoot WW2 Rifles" to "I want to empty out my bank account and be in debt for a very long time". There are so many diffrent kinds of the same rifle that if you really get in to collecting them then you will just have to have them all, but that the fun of it is finding all the diffrent kinds and trying to figure out ,do I really need to eat today because I really want that nice old Mil Surp that's calling my name out in the corner to take it home.

 

[30Cal]

The chances of your Garand having actually seen combat are nearly zero.

I dunno about that. I think over half of the M1's were built prior to the end of WWII (by SA and Winchester). There are still options for SA rifles and you can still get Win receivers and barreled receivers. I've gotten four M1's through the CMP and only one of them is a post-war rifle. Even if none of mine actually saw combat, I am well reminded of the war effort days when over 2,000 M1's were built each day.

The Swiss and Swede rifles are indeed nice, but they didn't play a roll in WWII.

Ty

 

[cookiemonster]

Cosmoline has a point about the Finn M-39's...I have a nice Sako M-39 with nice, visible cartouche on the stock...shoots wonderfully....has a good crown and very good rifling....paid 140 at a Houston gunshow for it. And it will NOT be sporterized...in respect to Simo Haya.

Czech Brno mausers are a nice item to grab, as well...


I have been warned about those Cruffler license...do not count on having any spare cash! lol

Darrell

 

[Cosmoline]

Even the Garands built during WWII rarely saw combat. Only a small percentage of US forces ever fought on the front line at rifle distance, whereas a large chunk of Finland's population fought nose-to-nose engagements with the Ruskies. The front line was their back yard, literally. To find any rifles in US history with a similar amount of front-line use you'd need to collect CSA firearms.

 

[RaggedClaws]

...Yugo SKS, Albanian SKS, Russian SKS...

Actually, only the Russian M44 SKS saw any WWII service, and that was in very small quantities for a very short time. All of the other nation's SKS' were most certainly post-war.

 

[secluded]

Quote:
...Yugo SKS, Albanian SKS, Russian SKS...

Actually, only the Russian M44 SKS saw any WWII service, and that was in very small quantities for a very short time. All of the other nation's SKS' were most certainly post-war.

Yea, I know. I was just trying to illustrate how the mil-surp "bug" seems to spread to other C&R rifles. Once bit by the bug it hard for many (myself included) to stick to one "type" of collecting it seems.

 

[jondwright]

Not to dis the US, but frankly if you're on a budget it pays big time to focus on the overseas C&R rifles and limit your US collection to an old CMP Garand.

I think this is very sound advice Cosmoline. I plan to handpick a rack grade M1 from the CMP, maybe a service grade. I won't spend $900.

 

[Steve in PA]

I don't know what the chances are that a current CMP M1 saw "combat" in WWII, but the chances are extremely good that most of them saw duty in the Korean war. When you think of the M1, you think of WWII, thats enough for me.

My current collection;
M1 Garand
1903A3
MN 91/30
German Mauser K98
Enfield No 4 Mk 1
Swiss K31

 

[jefnvk]

The SKS is an M45, and wasn't adopted until '46. Don;t think any were in WWII.

Check here for more info on the Rifes: http://www.surplusrifle.com/

As for the rifle seeing combat, I don't really care if mine did. There is a page out there somewhere that lets you look up the SN of your M1, to see if there is a record of it. I did, and while mine specifically was not listed, many in that SN range went to a Pennsylvania unit. That group wound up in Europe, and IIRC was at the Hurtgen forest. I have no idea if mine was there, but I like to think so. Not a big deal either way, though, it is a good rifle and most importantly mine.

EDIT: If you want one that seen combat, how about a Greek return? They almost certainly have been used.