Want to Start Building a 45ACP "Woods" Load

[41 Mag]

I have shot plenty of the 250gr Oregon Trial RNFP's out of my stock SS Colt Govt 1911. I use their load data and Unique. I actually find them pretty pleasant to shoot. Nothing much more than a standard 230gr load with the same charge.

The load as follows is listed as IPSC Heavy Bullet Major Load +P

Unique - 5.0grs 745fps OAL 1.168"

USE THE ABOVE LOADS EXACTLY AS LISTED.

THESE ARE MAXIMUM LOADS- DO NOT EXCEED CHARGES, OR SHORTEN OVERALL LENGTHS.

DO NOT FIRE THESE LOADS IN PRE-1950 REVOLVERS. FOR SUE IN PISTOLS WITH FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBERS ONLY.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I agree it is not something I would do to one of my Colt NM guns.

As you know, 1911's can shoot themselves loose if you push the envelope too much.
I certainly hope that you make the right decision.

The 1911 was designed for a 230 @ 830 = 351 ft/lb energy.

A 250 @ 900 = 458 ft/lb.
Or 30% over design spec.

Proof Loads are 30% over design spec.

sounds like you want 45 super

I guess I made it sound like I was looking for a +P+ load. When I look at factory 45 ACP +P data, it's usually a 230-gr. jacketed bullet going 950 ft/s. That's about what I'm looking for in a 230-gr. FMJ-FP, or maybe a 255-gr. LRN-FP going 875. From looking around at top-of-the-line factory 230 +P ammo that is still within SAAMI +P spec (Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Hornady T.A.P., Black Hills, Magtech Guardian, etc.), this isn't asking too much.

I thought .45 Super was more like a 230-gr. going 1,050 or faster from a 5" barrel.

Again, I don't want to batter my 1911, but I think it's at least rated for digesting quite a bit of +P ammo. Metallurgy has certainly improved a little since the early 20th century, when the 230-gr. bullet going 830 was standardized, right?

I understand the merits of the .44 Magnum. I own 3 .44 Magnum firearms, and reload more of it than any other caliber. But something about a modern, all-steel 1911 shooting heavy hardcast bullets seems like a great compromise between speed, capacity, strength, a great crisp trigger, packability, bullet size, and adequate penetration and energy.

Maybe I will rethink my 1911 woods gun fantasy, but I really don't think it's too far out of this world.

 

[kingmt]

If it is only a just incase round. Bear eating you alive or pounding your gun apart. I could take some chances of extra wear on the gun for a few shoots.

You could aways fill the case to the top of Bullseye then compress it down with a heavy bullet. Even if you didn't kill the bear you probably wouldn't have to worry about him eating you alive. ***Just in case you missed it the last part is a joke.***

 

[OregonJohnny]

I'm sure plenty of big toothy beasts were dispatched in the 19th and 20th centuries with a .45 Colt revolver, which originally pushed a 255-grain lead bullet between 850-950, right?

So I'm not sure why people think a 255-grain bullet (safely) pushed to 850-900 from a 1911 is ludicrous for a light-duty woods load.

 

[grubbylabs]

A 255 grain bullet of good construction should do the job just fine under the right circumstances. And unless you are putting hundreds of rounds of +P+ rounds though your gun a month, I can't see you having a problem. Just do some bullet testing before assuming. If your woods are like ours here in Idaho (which I would bet they are pretty similar) your biggest threat is an angry moose, with the chance encounter of a black bear. Unless you are at a popular camp spot with bear activity.

 

[OregonJohnny]

If your woods are like ours here in Idaho (which I would bet they are pretty similar) your biggest threat is an angry moose, with the chance encounter of a black bear. Unless you are at a popular camp spot with bear activity.

On the eastern border, up high in the mountains, yes - moose, wolves, cougar, black bear.

Here in the Willamette Valley, the coastal foothills, and the central high desert, medium-sized black bears and cougars are the biggest threat (on 4 legs). If I were to venture deep into the remote Oregon wilderness, on a 3 or 4-day backpacking trip, I'd take the Ruger Super Blackhawk.

Around trails, campsites, and my family's 3-acre property just outside of the suburbs, I like having a concealable semi-auto. Having this semi-auto setup for the very slight possibility of wildlife defense is all I'm looking for. Not a bear hunting load.

I think I'll work with some 230-gr. jacketed flat-point bullets, and slowly work up loads approaching 950 ft/s.

 

[grubbylabs]

Do some penetration testing and make sure they are not going to expand to much. But I think you are on the right trail for what it sounds like you are trying to accomplish. It has been my experience that a bear would rather run than charge unless you have a sow with cubs. And Moose are more likely to push the issue and cause problems for you, I have been stared down quite a few times while on horse back and I have a sister in law who was almost trampled by a cow while riding her snow machine down a groomed trail. Her husband had to literally hit the moose with his snow machine to get it distracted from her.

If you have about 900 bucks you want to burn go look at that Smith and Wesson 329 PD it is a very comfortable gun to carry and with a 4" barrel it hides under an over shirt or coat easily. But that is a lot of coin to burn for a strictly woods defense gun.

 

[DBR]

This looks like what you want:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

All ready to go and tested. The 230g load is no slouch either:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=69

 

[OregonJohnny]

This looks like what you want:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=214

All ready to go and tested. The 230g load is no slouch either:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...ct_detail&p=69

I actual have a box of the 255-gr. As I mentioned earlier, it does not feed well in my 1911, since the bullet is seated so deeply, the short OAL and sharp shoulder of the nose make the bullet nose dive into the feed ramp and hang up.

I do like the stats of their 230-gr. load, but I'd like to be able to duplicate it and test 100 rounds or so for function. 100 rounds of the Buffalo Bore would be over $100!

 

[sellersm]

Might want to talk with these folks: http://www.hunters-supply.com/

I've read some fascinating things about the effectiveness of their HC bullets in 45 caliber.

 

[Manny]

John Taffin did some work with heavy bullet loads trying to duplicate the original .45 Colt balistics in an .45 acp in the below article.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_189_31/ai_n27319913/

If you google john taffin heavy bullet .45 acp you'll also find links to some other forums where other folks have carried on his work in ways that you might find interesting.

 

[Clark]

http://www.grizzlybay.org/LearnMore/AttackStats.htm

For each person killed by a black bear attack there are 13 people killed by snakes, 17 by spiders, 45 by dogs, 120 by bees, 150 by tornadoes, 374 by lightning, and 60,000 by humans.

...Why are people so afraid of bear attacks?

...

So if you are 60,000 times more likely to be killed by a human, why not carry human shooting loads and use those on bear too?

Because we have a perceived threat, not a calculated threat.

People should face their fears and try to grow up.

 

[Fishslayer]

sounds like you want .460 Rowland.

Fixed it...

 

[OregonJohnny]

So if you are 60,000 times more likely to be killed by a human, why not carry human shooting loads and use those on bear too?

Because we have a perceived threat, not a calculated threat.

People should face their fears and try to grow up.

Are you referring to me, when you say "grow up"?

Should every person on a gun board asking for firearm/ammunition advice when they are in areas populated heavily by black bears be told to face their fears and grow up?

Should John Taffin, when developing his heavy 45 ACP loads for woods use, have been told to face his fears and grow up?

Seems pretty confrontational to me.

 

[zxcvbob]

 

[grubbylabs]

So if you are 60,000 times more likely to be killed by a human, why not carry human shooting loads and use those on bear too?

Because we have a perceived threat, not a calculated threat.

People should face their fears and try to grow up.

Its interesting that you say that.

This last year while archery hunting we were walking in on the elk over bear prints that we set a five dollar bill in and had room on both sides. We were walking over 40 foot plus tall trees that had been rolled over by bears looking for grubs. The day before one archer was mauled by a grizzly just a few miles from our hunt. Bears are a real threat in our world. I carry both spray and a gun for just in case.

Bear are not the only animals that should be respected and slightly feared. We also have an abundance of moose and they are the only critters aside from a bear of any kind (black or grizzly) with cubs that scare me. The few chance encounters I have had with bears have resulted in them running as soon as they new I was there, however moose stand their ground and charge without hesitation.

However the hunter mentioned above was mauled by a boar grizzly that was known to the local population. In fact the victim is as local as the bear is. They both new the other was there. The more you frequent bear country the more your odds increase that you will have an unfavorable out come with one. For some it is a very real threat that should not be taken lightly.

 

[StrawHat]

Here are some recipes for heavier bullets in the 45 ACP.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82903&highlight=heavy+acp+load

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60275

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7598&highlight=Lyman+454423

There is a lot more data, just need to look for it. Bottom line is it can be easily accomplished and not hard on the pistol.

 

[OregonJohnny]

Bottom line is it can be easily accomplished and not hard on the pistol.

Wow, good to hear. I was beginning to get the impression that it was the most dangerous undertaking in the world.

I like the sound of a 255-gr. lead bullet doing 850 f/s from a 5" barrel, without pushing past 45 ACP+P SAAMI pressure limits. I can't imagine there would be much difference in effectiveness at close range between 850 and 900 f/s, but it sounds like there would be a big difference in pressure.

I'll take a look at those links, thank you.

 

[OregonJohnny]

Another question I have, with these lead bullets designed for the 45 Colt, is where exactly do you taper crimp? Just behind the crimp groove? Does it give enough tension? Does a .469 or .470" crimp work like it does with a jacketed .451 bullet? The RNFP bullets I've seen have a crimp groove closer to the nose, so crimping in front of the groove would give a very short OAL. This has been the problem with the Buffalo Bore 255 +P rounds I tried. If crimping behind the crimp groove, does the gap left by the groove cause feeding problems in a 1911? I just bought a Sig P220 Carry Elite Dark (haven't shot it yet) and read that the 220 doesn't feed SWCs, because the spent casing being pulled from the chamber hangs up on the shoulder of the next SWC coming off the top of the mag. I can imagine something similar happening with the exposed crimp groove on a RNFP bullet.

 

[OregonJohnny]

So, can anyone answer my questions about seating depth, OAL, feeding issues, where and how to crimp, on these heavy revolver bullets when loading for a 1911:

Another question I have, with these lead bullets designed for the 45 Colt, is where exactly do you taper crimp? Just behind the crimp groove? Does it give enough tension? Does a .469 or .470" crimp work like it does with a jacketed .451 bullet? The RNFP bullets I've seen have a crimp groove closer to the nose, so crimping in front of the groove would give a very short OAL. This has been the problem with the Buffalo Bore 255 +P rounds I tried. If crimping behind the crimp groove, does the gap left by the groove cause feeding problems in a 1911? I just bought a Sig P220 Carry Elite Dark (haven't shot it yet) and read that the 220 doesn't feed SWCs, because the spent casing being pulled from the chamber hangs up on the shoulder of the next SWC coming off the top of the mag. I can imagine something similar happening with the exposed crimp groove on a RNFP bullet.

Thanks!

 

[StrawHat]

Where you crimp is going to depend on what it takes to feed that bullet in YOUR pistol. That's why I don't mess with self feeders and stick to revovlers. Get yourself a S&W 45 ACP is some persuassion and work up some loads. Much easier than getting a 1911 or such to work.

It can be done and the fellows I have mentioned are proof of it, but a revolver is so much easier and doesn't spred your empties all around the neighborhood.

 

[StrawHat]

Another article about SWCs in the 1911

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

 

[Catshooter]

Johnny,

The load you're describing is pretty much my carry load. Lyman 452424 cast from wheel weights,sized .4525, seated deep over 4.7 grains of Universal Clays. I get about 780 fps from the 3 3/4 inch barrel of my carry pistol. Goes a bit over 800 from a five inch.

Now, about that seated deep part. I don't know about your gun, but in my 40 some years of reloading that bullet in the .45 I have never seen a chamber that would accept the bullet seated with the front driving band exposed. The chambers are almost never cut to allow such a thing. I seat with only about twenty thousanths (.020) of the front driving band out of the case mouth.

If you seat too long the driving band will start to engage the rifling, very bad.

The way to find out with your Smith is to try it. Do this with a dummy, no powder and pull the extractor from the slide. Seat a bullet to whatever length will still fit in the mag and then drop it in your chamber. Gently let the slide go forward. Keep seating the bullet deeper until the gun goes into battery. I then go just a tiny bit deeper for reliability purposes.

Unique and Universal Clays are very similar powders and I wouldn't hesitate to work up a good load with Unique for this bullet. I used it for years before UC came out. I use UC now because it's much cleaner and I have a metric ton of it.

I used to try for the 900-950 range also. But over the years have come to see that it's just not needed. The weight of the bullet provides lots of penetration in flesh.

If you go here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php and dig around a bit you will discover all manner of people using this or similar loads to very good effect.

Here's a pic I took for you:



You can see how deep I seat them. You can also see how much more space there is in the brass when you use a 230 FMJ. Seating deeper rapidly increases pressure, so you want to be watchful. Of course you must work up your own loads, this load is safe in my guns assembled by me. Only a fool or a noob would take anyone's data without working up.
Good luck.


Cat

 

[OregonJohnny]

Get yourself a S&W 45 ACP is some persuassion and work up some loads. Much easier than getting a 1911 or such to work.

It can be done and the fellows I have mentioned are proof of it, but a revolver is so much easier and doesn't spred your empties all around the neighborhood.

Well the only reason I would undertake this mission using the .45 ACP is because of the semi-auto format. I have plenty of .357 and .44 revolvers, but I can shoot circles around them with my 1911. Having a thin, all-steel autoloader with a crisp trigger, fast follow-up shooting ability, and an 8-round capacity that can come pretty darn close to duplicating original .45 Colt revolver loads is what attracts me to the concept. I know the 1911 (and the .45 Automatic cartridge) were not originally designed to do this, but it seems reasonable with today's metallurgy and powders.

Catshooter,

Thank you for your post and your picture (although I can't see the picture very well due to the size). I know what you are talking about with the front driving band on a SWC bullet, but I've been more attracted to the round nose flat point bullets. These bullets have a crimp groove much closer to the nose of the bullet than on the SWC bullet designs. So if you seat the bullet so that the case mouth is taper crimped just in front of the crimp groove, your OAL is extremely short (I measure 1.177-1.180 on my Buffalo Bore 255 +P RNFP rounds). This is probably the cause of my feeding issues with the BB rounds. They are nose diving onto the feed ramp and hanging up half way into the chamber.

I've seen pictures of people loading these 250-255 grain RNFP bullets into .45 ACP cases, and it looks like they crimp just behind the crimp groove, to help get an acceptable OAL. This leaves the big revolver crimp groove exposed, and that is what I'm wondering about. Does this cause any issues in an autoloader?

 

[greenlion]

Seems to me, out of the powders you listed, Longshot would be your best bet. It develops higher velocities than most powders safely and can be used for a variety of calibers.