!warning! Bringing Firearms To New York State

[Tracy Hightower]

Hello everyone,
Noah Medcalf and I just completed a two day Tactical pistol class in Calverton New York on Long Island. We flew into Islip/MacArthur Airport with several firearms (All Handguns) that were checked in my baggage without incident or question in Nashville Airport.

This morning as we were checking in at our Airline at Islip, We were specifically asked if we had any firearms. After stating that I would be checking several firearms the TSA agent immediately turned and waved to a supervisor and told the supervisor I was checking firearms. The supervisor then turned and went over to a Suffolk County Police Officer who was already nearby and spoke to him. He then got the attention of another officer and both approached and identified themselves. He asked if I had firearms and I told him yes and pointed to the container that held them. He opened the container and looked at the firearms. He then asked if I had a New York State permit to possess these firearms. I told him no. He then informed me that he would have to place me under arrest for violating New York State law.

I then proceeded to tell him that I was carrying Law Enforcement credentials and produced them. He took my ID, looked at it and then took it into another room for about 5 minutes where I assume he copied it. He came back and then proceeded to inventory and record the serial numbers on all of the firearms. After doing so he informed me that since the "New Law" (HR 218) had been passed that they now had more discression in handeling this situation but some Police Officers had been arrested prior to HR 218. He did add that he personally would never do that but other officers had. I asked him if the circumstances would have been such that two of our instructors that were not Police Officers had taught this class, would they have been arrested. He said yes that unless you are a Police Officer or have a New York State permit to possess EACH FIREARM, NOT JUST ANY FIREARM, then then you will be arrested regardless of whether you are teaching a class or taking a class or attending a shooting event. After letting us go, we passed through security and proceeded to our gate. About five minutes later the other officer approached me and said they needed my date of birth. When asked why he stated that they had forgotten to get it and needed it for their records.

The reason that I wanted inform you all of this is to let everyone know what is going on at ALL airports in New York State not just New York city as I had previously heard this was a practice. I think that it is deplorable that ANY person who would travel to New York State with a Firearm for any legal purpose would be subject to arrest upon leaving the state for merely possesing a firearm in New York State without a state permit to POSSESS said firearm. This was and is not about carrying a firearm it was and is about merely possessing a firearm in that state.

I had a great time in New York and met a lot of great people and made a lot of new friends. I hope to return to train with them again in the future. It is sad that for the first time ever I felt like I was in another country, Not my country, Not the United States of America.

 

[P95Carry]

Somewhere else the 2A cranks down yet another notch!

 

[El Tejon]

Old news to THR.

Police being arrested for serf-based laws. Got to love the irony (but not those silly laws out there).

 

[sar]

just curious? what class did you take and where?

 

[another okie]

I guess they've either figured out some way the federal travel rule doesn't apply or they've decided to just ignore it.

If the New York law does not have an exemption for law enforcement, then they shouldn't be creating one by selective enforcement.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It's true. In NY State, all handguns are contraband unless each one is individually registered to, and in the possession of, someone with a permit. You need a permit to own one, and/or a permit to carry one concealed in NY State. Been that way for well over 50 years. It is because of laws like this that I moved to another state recently.

Sorry you had to learn this the hard way. I think it's a pretty sad statement, though, that had you not been a police officer you'd be SOL, and your life ruined. It is fortunate for you that you enjoy the status of a super citizen in the eyes of the law. Too bad we have to have two classes of citizenship, though. Reminds me of the movie Blade Runner, when the star threatened to quit the police force, he was reminded by his superior that if he wasn't a cop he was one of the little people. He implied that they could do anything they wanted to destroy him in that case. Looks like we're getting pretty close to that fictional depictment of a future America. You were lucky that in the eyes of the law, you were not just one of the little people.

 

[Tracy Hightower]

Sar,
Sorry I was not clear on that. We taught our Tactical Pistol class at the Calverton shooting range in Calverton NY on Long Island.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Sorry I was not clear on that. We taught our Tactical Pistol class at the Calverton shooting range in Calverton NY on Long Island.

I've shot there hundreds of times. I like the fact that you can drive right up to the shooting stations.

 

[sar]

sorry i missed it, being in nyc, it is hard to find an opportunity like that. ever coming back giving ny state laws?

It is tough here in NY state and City. In fact, I have to spend my morning at police headquarters tomorrow just to get the paperwork on a handgun I purchased through the city red tape.

By the way, if you had left via a New York City airport, you would have needed an NYC permit, not a state permit.

 

[ctdonath]

HELLOOOOO! That's the whole point/problem with permits: if you don't have one for the given activity in the given jurisdiction, you go to jail!

NY begins with the declaration that it is a FELONY TO POSSESS A LOADED HANDGUN, and a MISDEMEANOR TO POSSESS AN UNLOADED HANDGUN. Note that the term "loaded" is very very loosely defined.

You CANNOT legally possess a handgun in NY unless you have obtained a NY Firearms Permit for the particular handgun(s) you may carry. NY does not care about any permit granted anywhere else,

HELLOOOOO! This is NEW YORK STATE! Famous for being very restrictive on gun ownership! There is no leniency for permits from other states, for visiting, for training, for being a cop, for passing thru, for meaning well, or for being caught just before leaving. If you're not a resident, you don't get a permit.

Let's restate the core point: In NY, HANDGUN = FELONY unless specifically permitted otherwise. There are exceptions made, but you MUST know exactly what that entails (see a lawyer).

You're surprised? You expected leniency for reason X? You didn't have time/resources/motivation/etc. to find out the local laws? You thought you wouldn't get caught? You figured "it can't happen to me"? TS.

That's why it's so friggin' important to DEMAND incorporation of full RKBA in all states.

Get it clear, guys. NY. HANDGUN. FELONY. JAIL. Moreso NYC. :banghead:

Tracy, you're incredibly lucky the feds passed national carry for cops just in time for you to not get tossed in the slammer. The rest of us are not so lucky (so don't be surprised if us peons act jealous).

 

[deanf]

Since you were hassled upon leaving, and not upon arriving, it seems that NY authorities are only interested in hassling gun owners because they are gun owners, and not in preventing any crime that might be committed with the gun while you're in their jurisdiction.

If they're so worried about what people might do with their unregistered guns, why don't they screen for them upon arrival?

 

[Graystar]

Non-residents participating in an NRA sponsored match have two days before and after the event to travel to and from the event. Your match registration card is your “passportâ€. And, of course, there’s the federal exemption if you’re just driving through the state.

Otherwise, you’re just like anyone else...you have no special authority or permission to possess a firearm, and are subject to all the laws therein. You should have known better than to travel with your guns to a state without knowing their laws (especially NY )

 

[P95Carry]

the federal exemption if you're just driving through the state.

Graystar ..... would that mean that if I ventured just into NY state outa PA .. briefly .... and then back again ... I could still have my carry piece in the truck? Unloaded, of course!

Not sure I'd want to risk it but ....... ??

 

[Graystar]

Graystar ..... would that mean that if I ventured just into NY state outa PA .. briefly .... and then back again ... I could still have my carry piece in the truck? Unloaded, of course!

Sure...as long as it’s locked up where you can't get to it easily...like federal law says.

 

[Stand_Watie]

p95carry

Yes, I believe under particular circumstances you can carry through NY under the federal exemption

****
Title 18> PART I > CHAPTER 44 >Sec. 926A. - Interstate transportation of firearms


Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console
***

Read it very carefully if you plan on availing yourself of it, and even then it might not hurt to have a lawyer on retainer. I won't risk it myself. You won't catch me in New York with a gun period. Which means you won't catch me in New York, period. I don't have the money for the lawyer's fees, and I don't trust the New York police to know the law.

 

[VaniB.]

Bad enough being arrested and hassled, but it would of been a damn shame for someone without the law enforcement credentials to have lost their collection of competition guns.

One of the most satisfying moments of my leaving God forsaken NYC twenty five years ago was sending the gestapo at One Police Plaza a formal note that I was packing up my 3 approved target pistols (the limit back then) and moving to Texas where I wouldn't any longer need their target permit (that took me a 1 1/2 years to get) or police permission and guidance.

It was quite a change for me back then, as a pistol purchase in Texas required only a resident drivers license and yellow form. Not too bad still, as now I simply show them my CHL, and fill out the yellow form.

 

[P95Carry]

Graystar - Stand_Watie - thx both.

I won't risk it myself. You won't catch me in New York with a gun period. Which means you won't catch me in New York, period.

Pretty much my sentiment also!!

 

[Freedspeak]

N.Y. permits

Yes, I remember them, each pistol had to be on the permit BEFORE you picked it up, and the restrictions were on the permit based on county judge.

Another point was that technicaly you were in violation of the law if you let another person try your pistol, since they were not licencesd for it, and you could both be arrested.

Mine was just a bit short of full carry (still took over 6 months), hunting, target shooting, hiking, camping, canoeing, farming, and hiking, if I had been in a different county I could have had just a carry (N.Y. judges, go figure, and he was a freind of the family, from what I heard from freinds upstate it took less than a month for them)

 

[P95Carry]

Strange really .. I could be up North in Erie PA .. drive not so very far North and into NY .. and bam .. I could be arrested and hung out to dry ....... and yet - supposedly - this is all the US of A.

Hard to believe sometimes eh? Oh for nationwide conformity.

 

[migoi]

What happens....

if you find yourself inadvertantly in NY? Over the last 25 years of flying, several times I have been on flights that had to be diverted to a different city. The airlines always eventually got me to my destination but not necessarily through the same cities where I was originally scheduled. Most of the time I did not have to retrieve my checked luggage but a couple of times I've had to claim my luggage and manually transfer it to whatever airline I had been alternately booked on.

My question is how would this play out if I were diverted to NY and had firearms in my luggage? If my original routing would not have caused me to violate any laws would being forced into NY (that will be the only way I would go) cause me to be arrested and my firearms confiscated? I know all the answers will be mere conjecture...but I would like to hear thoughts on this situation.

migoi

 

[ctdonath]

Since you were hassled upon leaving, and not upon arriving

Arrival by air does not bring one to the attention of the authorities.
Walking up to a clerk and saying "I have a gun" does.

Being found with contraband while leaving the state indicates that one possessed it while in the state. It's not like having the gun for just a few seconds while leaving; the cops realize (especially when you explain) that you've had it in-state for a non-trivial time.

Non-residents participating in an NRA sponsored match have two days before and after the event to travel to and from the event.

True...and it better be NRA sponsored (not Glock, DCM/CMP, etc.), and everything else mentioned in the law must be followed exactly - and even then, this bit of law is so unknown/misunderstood that you may end up explaining it to a judge.

would that mean that if I ventured just into NY state outa PA .. briefly .... and then back again ... I could still have my carry piece in the truck?

Yes - IF your entire trip in NY is clearly "travelling through", and not "stopping". The federal law does not define the limits of "travelling through" a state - even a potty break is legally debatable and may land you in jail (at least until a federal judge decides where the legal line is).

technicaly you were in violation of the law if you let another person try your pistol

Yup. If the permit doesn't have your name and that serial number on it, it's Greybar Hotel.

Oh for nationwide conformity.

Oh, you mean like that "full faith and credit" part of the Constitution? Funny, nobody has seriously pushed that one yet...

if you find yourself inadvertantly in NY?

The laws do not allow for "inadvertent" as a legal defense. Mens Rea (question of "guilty mind") is irrelevant; if you are strictly speaking in violation of NY gun laws, you're in big trouble.

Only hope is get a federal judge to declare FOPA applies. Failing that, hope it ends with simple confiscation.


NY: The "Empire State".

 

[Tracy Hightower]

First of all some of you made the assumption that I traveled into the state without knowing the law. Prior to my trip I contacted the State Police and explained why I was coming and what I would be doing and was informed that as long as it was a LEGAL SPORTING ACTIVITY that I could possess firearms while I was in the state regardless of whether I was a police officer or not. Further there was no mention of the NRA or an NRA sponsored event. I was further told that I would need some documentation to prove what I was doing and where.

When I was attempting to leave the state I provided documentation to the Suffolk County Police officer that clearly showed what I was doing in the state and where. He handed it back to me and stated that he required a permit and that documentation did not matter without a permit. Apparantly state law does not matter. Apparantly each jurisdiction has their own interpretation and application of the law. It was only after I was told that I would be arrested that I informed him that I was a Law Enforcement Officer.


Am I glad that I am a Law Enforcement Officer? You bet! Do I feel like I am a "Super Citizen" or that everyone else is a "peon"?
Absolutely not! I feel that I have no more right to protect myself or my family than any one else and that it is sad that ANYONE could be arrested for participating in a constitutionally protected activity. I do not apologize for being a LEO nor do I intend to get into an Us against them argument regarding ANYONES right to carry as I have stated my position that everyone should have the same rights equally as citizens of this country.
My intention with this post was and is to inform anyone that thinks they may be aware of the law in New York State, that the Law does not matter depending on the jurisdiction. No matter what I was doing in Suffolk County, whether it was an NRA sponsored event or hunting or whatever, I needed a New York State permit to Possess a firearm in that jurisdiction.

Will I return? yes, I met and trained with a lot of very nice people and I look forward to returning in 2005.

 

[Graystar]

if you find yourself inadvertantly in NY?...

If I was in that situation I would immediately notify the authorities at the airport *before* I get my luggage. After that...who knows.

They couldn't really charge you with a crime, though. A criminal act is a union of act and intent( or negligence.) In this case it’s clear that there was no intent or negligence on your part.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Tracy, don't take offense. I wasn't blaming you for this situation. You were just lucky to benefit from the situation.

Strange really .. I could be up North in Erie PA .. drive not so very far North and into NY .. and bam .. I could be arrested and hung out to dry ....... and yet - supposedly - this is all the US of A.

Hard to believe sometimes eh? Oh for nationwide conformity.

Yes, well the US Constitution is supposed to guarantee national conformity already. The Full Faith And Credit clause means that any official act of government in any state must be afforded legitimacy in all other states so, for example, if Florida issues me a license to operate a motorcycle, then California has to recognized that I may legally operate a motorcycle in California. This is supposed to apply to all such official acts of the governments of all states. The Constitution requires that if state X issues you a license to carry a concealed weapon, then all other states must recognize that authorization. As someone else above mentioned, I am surprised that these laws to the contrary have not been challenged already on this basis, i.e., as a violation of Full Faith and Credit.

 

[Graystar]

LEGAL SPORTING ACTIVITY

Did you ask what defines a legal sporting activity? What made you think that a training class was a legal sporting activity? As an LEO you know that the law is not vague, but is detailed and specific. Knowing that guns are generally illegal in NY, the presence of the word “legal†in front of “sporting activity†should have sent up a red flag. Also, as an LEO, you should know that LEOs are not lawyers, and don’t always know the less commonly used points of law. If you had told them that section 265.20(a)(13) of state law provides you with an exemption, they would have had something to investigate.

NY has shooting competitions and people come from all over the country to participate in them. People arrive and leave with their guns all the time.

No county can usurp state law. From your description of the account, it sounds like you were never in possession of the kind of paperwork that invokes the statewide exemption.