!warning! Bringing Firearms To New York State

[The Real Hawkeye]

If I was in that situation I would immediately notify the authorities at the airport *before* I get my luggage. After that...who knows.

They couldn't really charge you with a crime, though. A criminal act is a union of act and intent( or negligence.) In this case it’s clear that there was no intent or negligence on your part.

I guess you must be a first year law student and haven't yet gotten to the study of "Strict Liability Crimes."

 

[Graystar]

The Full Faith And Credit clause means that any official act of government in any state must be afforded legitimacy in all other states…
The Constitution requires that if state X issues you a license to carry a concealed weapon, then all other states must recognize that authorization.

You’re misinterpreting what it means to “recognize.†A state must recognize another state’s CCW license as a valid document issued by that state, and must afford that license the same validities as other documents. For example, another state’s CCW license should be acceptable as id (to a state official...the liquor store doesn’t have to accept it.)

However, recognizing a license as a validly issued document is not the same as enforcing the law under which that license was granted. States are sovereign. One state’s law cannot usurp another’s. That was never the intent of the Full Faith and Credit clause.

 

[Graystar]

I guess you must be a first year law student and haven't yet gotten to the study of "Strict Liability Crimes."

That's the "negligence" part of what I said. And I'm not a law anything.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

That's the "negligence" part of what I said. And I'm not a law anything.

Not to drive this point into the ground, but there are acts that constitute crimes that do not even require negligence. For example, statutory rape. You can proceed as a reasonable person and check id before things become intimate. There are some 16 year old girls who look like 21 year old girls, and if they have their sister's id, and they look just like their sister, a reasonable person would conclude that they are in fact 21 and not 16. No negligence there, but that is a felony crime, for which you will go to jail for a long time, even though a jury might agree that you took reasonable precautions to make sure you were not committing a crime. No particular state of mind is required to be guilty. In fact, you will be deemed guilty of this crime even if the jury concludes that you had a 100% innocent state of mind and took all reasonable precautions to make sure you were not acting illegally.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

You’re misinterpreting what it means to “recognize.†A state must recognize another state’s CCW license as a valid document issued by that state, and must afford that license the same validities as other documents. For example, another state’s CCW license should be acceptable as id (to a state official...the liquor store doesn’t have to accept it.)

However, recognizing a license as a validly issued document is not the same as enforcing the law under which that license was granted. States are sovereign. One state’s law cannot usurp another’s. That was never the intent of the Full Faith and Credit clause.

I see nothing in Article IV, Section 1 of the US Constitution about not giving full faith and credit to another state's public acts if their laws differ from your state's laws. Sorry, but someone has sold you a bill of goods on that one. The limits to full faith and credit that you assert are just not in the Constitution. If they are, please show me where?

What if Vermont decided that to get a driver's license in Vermont, one has to take a 6 credit college course on driving, and that this had to be through a Vermont accredited university? Would my Florida driver's license stop being valid in the state of Vermont? No. Why? Full Faith and Credit.

 

[F4GIB]

I last set foot in NY in 1975 and in NJ in 1968. Never again. Nothing there I need to visit.

RE: diverted aircraft. Simply refuse to accept the luggage containing the gun back from the airline (a common carrier). Let them store it and ship it on to your next destination.

 

[Graystar]

Yes, and in New York if an unregistered gun is found in a car then *everyone* in the car is guilty of possession.

And when you shoot a person in self-defense, you intentionally assaulted someone but no crime occurred.

The law is complex, and when making a statement that is generally true, it’s impossible to include with it every related modifier and exception. We wouldn’t be able to make *any* statements about law pasting in a law book.

I emphasized that I would notify the authorities *before* I get my luggage. As long as the airline is in possession of my luggage, I haven’t violated New York’s possession laws because the airline is authorized by federal law to transport the firearms. You can’t be charged with a crime that hasn’t occurred.

 

[Graystar]

I see nothing in Article IV, Section 1 of the US Constitution about not giving full faith and credit to another state's public acts if their laws differ from your state's laws.

I never said there was. You just don’t understand what full faith and credit means. A state will fully recognize the existence of other states public acts. However, that does not create an obligation upon a state to enforce or abide by such acts.

The full faith and credit clause is NOT what allows you to drive in one state with a driver’s license issued by another. If you read the Motor Vehicle law all states you’ll see that the definition of the term “driver’s license†includes valid licenses issued by other states. THAT is why you can drive across states.

 

[ctdonath]

Prior to my trip I contacted the State Police and explained why I was coming ...

A common mistake. The police do not necessarily know the laws, nor are they obligated to explain them to you correctly. When it comes to RKBA in NY, you must get a lawyer or read the laws yourself. The relevant laws are voluminous and complicated and precise, frequently re-defining common terms with uncommon/nonsensical meanings.

The bulk of the relevant laws are here and here.

LEGAL SPORTING ACTIVITY ...

... which must be an actual competition run by the NRA. Period. Training doesn't count. See #13 here.

Apparantly state law does not matter.

State law does matter. Unfortunately, what the State Police told you was not state law. Leniency, by good faith or by mistake, is not law.

My intention with this post was ...

Pardon me if I came down too hard. We are trying, ultimately, to make the same point: NY law is poorly understood and harshly enforced.

 

[ctdonath]

A criminal act is a union of act and intent

Not necessarily. The issue at hand is a matter of strict liability: simple possession is enough for conviction, regardless of intent.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Not necessarily. The issue at hand is a matter of strict liability: simple possession is enough for conviction, regardless of intent.

Excellent point. I wish I had said that.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

You just don’t understand what full faith and credit means. A state will fully recognize the existence of other states public acts. However, that does not create an obligation upon a state to enforce or abide by such acts.

On what authority do you say this? My authority is the plain language of the US Constitution. It is not a question of enforcement, but merely extending full faith and credit to the public act. If a state chooses to have in their law a statement consistent with full faith and credit, that does not invalidate full faith and credit for public acts lacking similar statements. For example, marriage.

I am open to the possibility that you are correct, whether I like the implication or not. I would just like to see some authoritative support for what you say, as it seems contrary to the plain meaning of the FF&C clause.

 

[Deavis]

any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but basically NY can restrict you because you can't lawfully possess and carry a firearm in NY state according to their laws. Thus this provision doesn't really provide you any exemption.

Isn't that how they are reading this? In NY you have to have a permit and so being an out of state resident means you cannot lawfully possess it. So, you can't travel there without getting a permit. Am I missing something here?

I know that isn't how it is supposed to be

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong

Yes, I think you are. This merely means that you may pass through NY state in possession of a handgun without a NY State permit, so long as NY State is not your destination AND you were legal in the place you started and will be legal in the place you end up. So, for example, you can travel with a handgun from the state of Vermont to the state of Florida, and if you are pulled over in NY State they may not arrest you for violating NY State law.

 

[deanf]

Since you were hassled upon leaving, and not upon arriving

Arrival by air does not bring one to the attention of the authorities.
Walking up to a clerk and saying "I have a gun" does.

The guns were brought to the attention of authorities (TSA) when originally checked. NY authorities could have access to information about which passengers are arriving with guns if they wanted to. But they apperently don't seek this information.

My point is this: since they don't seek to find out who is arriving with guns, and only seek to confiscate them when people leave their jurisdiction, they are not the slightest bit concerned about crimes that might be committed with unregistered guns in their jurisdiction. They are only concerned with taking peoples guns. If they were concerned with "preventing gun violence" they would take the guns and make arrests upon arrival, not upon departure. Hypocricy.

 

[Graystar]

Not necessarily. The issue at hand is a matter of strict liability: simple possession is enough for conviction, regardless of intent.

Yes, I know. I said intent or negligence. The "negligence" part covers that.

And that's why I said to notify authorities before attempting to take possession.

 

[ctdonath]

In one case (arrival), they would have to expend significant effort to check records of everyone arriving, going on a perpetual fishing expidition. This is not practical (time/effort/cost), and might not be legal (contents of luggage may not, by federal law, be 'advertised').

In the other case (departure), they can hardly avoid it. Someone walking up saying "here I am, here it is" is practically declaring a criminal act, as possession is in fact a criminal act unless an exempting permit is presented. If the clerk brings it to their attention (which she will), they have to act on it.

There's a difference between no longer being lenient with what's blatant, vs. seeking out possible offenses.

Please don't push the issue. They might take you up on the idea.

 

[Graystar]

My authority is the plain language of the US Constitution.

First, the Constitution isn't written in plain language. Terms like "ex post facto" and “habeas corpus†are not plain language. The Constitution was written by lawyers and contains lots of legalese. You are giving the words “full faith and credit†powers that they never had.

No state can tell another state what to do. That’s the bottom line. Nothing that one state does can create any kind of obligation on another state. Marriage was a terrible example for you to use. Right now states are mulling over bills to not recognized gay marriages from other states. This is a power of the states that was never delegated away.

Full faith is really complicated. What I know of it is about a drop’s worth from the bucket. But this document from Findlaw is a good start I think.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article04/08.html#2

 

[Graystar]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but basically NY can restrict you because you can't lawfully possess and carry a firearm in NY state according to their laws. Thus this provision doesn't really provide you any exemption.

The law provides exemptions for itself all the time. That's nothing unique.

In NY section 265 of the Penal code says simply and plainly that possession of a firearm against the law. That same section also says that anyone licensed under section 400 is exempt from this law. My handgun license, and hence my exemption from procecution, exist under the same exact mechanism as the exemption for a competitor that comes to NY for an NRA competition.

 

[TamThompson]

I'm confused...

Tracy,
Were these handguns or long guns y'all were carrying? Were the NY cops trying to say that ALL FIREARMS are illegal in NY, or just handguns?

Reason I'm asking is, I'm a writer and author, and if I'm successful enough, at some point I will probably be asked by a publisher or agent to take a trip to NYC. I'm a middle-aged lady who happily carries in Texas with a CHL, but I don't want to get convicted of a (unconstitutional) felony in NYC just because I carried my Glock 30 and S&W .38+p snubby back-up gun.

So, could I take a shotgun in a hardshell locking case and keep it in my hotel room, or is it, in fact, ALL FIREARMS?

Thanks,

 

[Graystar]

Tracy,
Were these handguns or long guns y'all were carrying? Were the NY cops trying to say that ALL FIREARMS are illegal in NY, or just handguns?

Shouldn't you ask someone that lives in New York?

Rifles and shotguns are not included under New York's definition of firearm. You do not need a license to possess one.

EXCEPT...in New York City. New York City has implemented it's own registration process for rifles and shotguns. So you won’t be able to legally keep a shotgun in your NYC hotel room. NY doesn't give licenses, nor does NYC give permits, to non-residents.

 

[sar]

Tam: you better do research if you ever write about guns and NYC. In NYC to have posession of a rifle and shotgun without a rifle and shotgun permit issued by NYPD and the certificate of registration for each shotgun or rifle is against the law.

 

[deanf]

In one case (arrival), they would have to expend significant effort to check records of everyone arriving, going on a perpetual fishing expidition. This is not practical (time/effort/cost), and might not be legal (contents of luggage may not, by federal law, be 'advertised').

I'm not sure there would be significant effort involved. This is why man invented computers. Just because something is illegal hasn't stopped .gov in the past. And if states wanted to be above board about it and make sure it was legal, I think they could do so. They have lobbying power in DC.

 

[Geoff Ross]

Mr Hightower, you made several mistakes here:


First is coming to New York, especially the downstate counties around NYC. The local County PD lives in it's own world and rarely pays attention to state laws.

Asking the State Police for info in this case does not take into account the Suffolk County PD's own interpretation of state laws. In the past the county legislature passed a resolution requiring the SCPD to follow the State Law in the issuance of Pistol Permits. The SCPD ignored the county government and refused to comply! The SCPD does what it wants and the public and government be damned.

A relative who was retired from the NYPD (and lives in Suffolk County) was required to submit to an extensive and intrusive investigation by the SCPD to simply retain his handguns. His crime was waiting over 6 months before trying to recover his guns from the precinct. (He had suffered kidney failure and was in bad shape untill a kidney transplant changed everything.) He was a 29 year veteran Homicide Detective.

Another Sporting Clays buddy had his handguns confiscated when he and his wife decided to divorce, and it was an amicable divorce. He had to go to court to get his guns back.

I have been shooting at indoor ranges and had the PD go down the line to check serial numbers to insure they were on my permit!

The gist of my bloviating is to be very carefull in the downstate area with handguns, the local constabulary often develops it's own ideas as to how laws should be interpreted.

AND DO NOT GO INTO NY WITH A HANDGUN...EVER!

 

[raz-0]

From the Real hawkeye

Yes, I think you are. This merely means that you may pass through NY state in possession of a handgun without a NY State permit, so long as NY State is not your destination AND you were legal in the place you started and will be legal in the place you end up. So, for example, you can travel with a handgun from the state of Vermont to the state of Florida, and if you are pulled over in NY State they may not arrest you for violating NY State law.

Well, maybe I am ignorant, btu I don't think the safe passage law only provides protection if youa re kosher in the departure state and the arrival state. I believe it provides protection during the transport portion. Arrival and destination get a different set of laws that are not federal, and thus you can get in additional hot water without any federal protection at those points. However, I don't think that if you get busted on state charges at the destination, or more importantly WOULD get busted, that youa re now open to prosecution by every jurisdiction you pass through on your trip.


Second, your nalogy to statutory rape is flawed in actual practice. There IS case precident for the suspect getting charges dropped after demonstrating the underage person in question made a deliberate and criminal effort to misrepresent their age.

However, people should also remembe when making plans that the desired result is to avoid arrest and prosecution, not just conviction. A length and costly criminal trial ina remote locale that you will win eventually isn't exactly a preferred outcome.