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Was this a BG or a dunce ?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by jh9x18ky, Nov 16, 2007.

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  1. jh9x18ky

    jh9x18ky Member

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    Here the setup, Sunday morning, parking lot at a small town mall, wife and I were going to the car from a grocery store.. A guy approaches us walking, no cars close to him when I spot him coming, probably 30 ft distance, he asks where is XYZ road... Something wasnt right, told the wife to get in the car, I wasnt carrying a firearm, but always as in 24/7 keep a Benchmade folder in my front pocket... before I answered, the knife was open, behind my back.. the road he asked about is in a different town, 120 miles east, my grandparents at one time lived on the road.. I answered "Wrong town, the road you want is 120 miles east." He was still approaching, I heard my car door open, wife was getting in, and I said firmly "Stop, you wont find any road in my direction, move away." He did stop, started walking toward the grocery store. I looked around, and the only vehicle in the direction he came from was at the far end of the parking lot with out of state tags. So what do you think ? BG or did I over react ?
     
  2. ihopewewin

    ihopewewin Member

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    Id vote dunce. If he did come at you what would you have done? You can't stab a man for running at you. Id leave the knife in the pocket until things get a little worse.
     
  3. Babarsac

    Babarsac Member

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    I'd vote for both bad guy and a dunce. I've run into a couple wackos when I come into Orlando.
     
  4. jh9x18ky

    jh9x18ky Member

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    I agree ihope the knife should have stayed in my pocket longer, but a stranger approaching on foot, no vehicle close to him, asking about a road 120 miles away... I guess I reacted before I thought about the situation.
     
  5. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Says who? I'd do it. Would with a firearm too.
     
  6. ihopewewin

    ihopewewin Member

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    ClickClickD'oh Quote:
    If he did come at you what would you have done? You can't stab a man for running at you.

    Says who? I'd do it. Would with a firearm too.

    Have fun sitting in jail for most likely the rest of your life.
     
  7. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Time to yet again whip out that quote of mine that needs so often be repeated. Living within the law is dependant on your ability to articulate yourself.

    In this case:

    Situation:

    1) Sig'o and self in parking lot.
    2) We are approached by an individual who is A) Asking for directions and B) on foot
    3) This individual does not have an apparent means of transportation and is asking for directions to an inprobable location
    4) After being verbally commanded to not approach, the individual charges.

    Conclusions: This person is a threat to me based on his insistance, after verbal warning, to close the distance into threatening range complicated by a cover story that appears to be fabricated. When he charges, he gets two to the chest.
     
  8. sm

    sm member

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    My gut says you and wife were being sized up.
    Furthermore, you and wife were made as you entered lot, and entered store and these folks waited for you two to come out-
    Or
    Someone on this "team" was in the store/near storefront, cell phoned to car on end of lot and one of the team set out on foot to meet you.

    Often times we only see the part of these "teams" that present themselves.
     
  9. jh9x18ky

    jh9x18ky Member

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    There was something about this situation, it just didnt "smell" right.... I went with my gut reaction, and if I had to be wrong, would rather be wrong with an open knife in my hand than without. Either way, no harm was done.
     
  10. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    A few months ago I was in the parking lot of the local grocery store, loading grocery bags into the backseat of the truck (a Nissan Crew Cab). It was dusk going on dark, the lights in the parking lot had come on. The parking lot had a few more cars in it when I came out of the store than it had when I arrived, and one of them had parked beside the truck which had not had any other vehicles around it earlier.

    I was putting groceries into the back seat on the passenger side beside the recently arrived car when I noticed a young man skulking across the parking lot towards me from car to car. I looked around to see if there were others similarly engaged- but I saw no one else. There were no other cars close to me other than the one parked beside the truck.

    I shifted to loading bags with my left hand only and took a grip on the pistol in my pocket with my right, while I kept track of the person dodging from car to car and steadily heading my way. I kept scanning to make sure there were no other people approaching or hiding in the parking lot. I couldn't see anyone else.

    The young man reached the other side of the car parked beside my truck, hunched over and trying to stay out of sight but moving toward the back of the car. Had he come around the back of the car, I'd have been trapped between the shopping cart and the open back door of the truck. So I assumed the interview stance and loudly told him to stop right there.

    He did, and stood up. He looked a little uncertain. My left index finger was pointed at his nose, my right hand still holding the pistol in my pocket.

    Querilously he said, "I was just tryin' to scare you."

    I assured him that he had succeeded, and asked him if he made it a habit to try and scare people he didn't know. He looked even more confused.

    He said, "Ain't you Kevin?"

    I assured him I most certainly was not Kevin, still taking quick glances around to make sure he didn't have company headed my way.

    He said, "Well, you sure LOOK like Kevin."

    I told him I was sorry to hear that Kevin was so sorely afflicted as to look like me, but that I most certainly was NOT Kevin, didn't know Kevin, and that wherever Kevin was, he should go there, find him and scare him there- because it was a REALLY REALLY BAD idea to try and sneak up on people he didn't know in grocery store parking lots, no matter who he thought they looked like.

    And finally he left to go find Kevin, still looking confused, and still not knowing how close he had come to REALLY scaring me.

    I think I have said here before- I HATE parking lots. I came very close to having to shoot someone in a mall parking lot in Fayetteville, NC at Christmastime in the years before concealed carry was legal in NC. I had a pistol in the car, where it could legally be openly carried, but it wasn't on my person. Fortunately I got to the car (and the pistol) before the person who was following (with a knife) got to me.

    Parking lots can be unhealthy places, for all sorts of reasons. Be very careful as we approach the holiday season and reasons to spend time in various shopping endeavors become more pressing. Don't forget to watch 360, check back seats and under cars, and in general maintain yellow while going about your holiday business.

    And please don't go off half cocked on some poor schmuck who mistakes you for Kevin and wants to scare you. Jail is not a salubrious place to spend the holidays.

    lpl/Still in NC, but at least we can carry concealed now- some places, anyway.
     
  11. Shooters Plus

    Shooters Plus Member

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    And only him and the man up-above know if he was really just trying to scare Kevin or if he was meerly looking for an excuse since you got the upperhand on him. Regardless, it sounds like you did a good job of observing your surroundings.

    This type of thing scares me badly because my wife is totally "zoned-out" when she goes grocery shopping or shopping at the mall. Even though she does carry, it still scares me because she just does not pay attention to her surroundings.
     
  12. JamisJockey

    JamisJockey member

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    Another reason I like parking out where there aren't cars parked next to me.
    Parking lot "interviews" suck. Its never fun to have someone invade your space when you're fairly vulnerable, engaged in such an innocuous activity as unloading groceries. Doubly so for me because I'm often running errands with my two spawn, ages 2 and 4.
    Luckily I've only been interviewd once here where I live. Happened more often in Utah than it does here.

    JH I think you handled it fine.
     
  13. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Like SM, my gut says he was testing you. No car in sight, asking for a road over a hundred miles away, and still approaching after you'd given him an answer. That doesn't jibe with me.

    And as for having the knife out and behind your back - I'd have done the same thing. My little Kershaw would be flicked and hidden in my hoodie pocket, just in case. The fact that he stopped and left when you all the sudden addressed him in a firm voice with a command to move away said one thing to him - not a worthwhile target. At first, you were a gentleman along with his wife, who may be a good target.

    Also, about having the knife out and ready - at those distances, you don't have a hell of a long time to deploy and use a weapon, no matter what it may be. I'd much rather take my chances at jailtime and have a weapon ready to go, than to waste time making extra, extra, EXTRA sure he was a threat and get taken out in front of my wife by some thug in a parking lot. And if the guy sees the knife and decided to retreat and call the cops on me? "Well, officer, I was simply cutting the tags off of some of my purchases, and this nice man walked up to ask me directions. I surely didn't mean to scare him, and I heartily apologize. Have a nice night, and stay safe."
     
  14. ihopewewin

    ihopewewin Member

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    Apparently I love my freedom more then some others. Clearly some of us need to be checking up on the self defense laws put into place.
     
  15. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    That would be quaint if you were refering to me. There's nothing like a high school student telling a LEO they need to learn the law. Thanks kid, you made my evening.
     
  16. Tokugawa

    Tokugawa Member

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    Hey! I have this great idea! Lets wait till the "interviewer"sticks a knife in your belly and let's three or our feet of intestine on the ground before we do anything! Yeah! Right!
    The OP did well-he got ready with what he had. You wait till you are absolutely 100% certain that the BG is really a BG and is attacking to get ready and you are toast.
     
  17. LightningJoe

    LightningJoe Member

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    Lighten up, ClickClick. I agree LEOs shooting unarmed dufuses is fine, but for the rest of us, we need to be a bit more circumspect.


    One time I was at a gas station in Howe and this lady stopped and asked me where a particular street was. I said I didn't know. And she asked, "Well, am I still in Oklahoma?" There are some magnificently confused people out there.


    In this situation, the other car in the parking lot was undoubtedly the guy's car. It was far away because the poster's car was far from his. Duh.
     
  18. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    There are plenty of cases on file where civilians have shot unarmed attackers in self defense and not come to grief over it. The threat of, or attempted application of lethal force is the standard needed for self defense with lethal force. Lethal force does not mandate the presence of a weapon.

    And did that lady then proceed to charge at you?

    Please remember the conditional I was responding to. I didn't say shoot a guy who asks you directions. I said shoot a guy who has been verbally warned to keep distance, then charges you. If you guys don't understand the danger in that situation you really need to take some self defense classes. Serious ones, no TaeBo.

    Here's a reality check for you guys. If that guy starts his charge from ten to twenty feet from you, he is going to get you. You are going to get stabbed, bludgeoned, beaten, whatever his nefarious intent is... and I can gaurantee you that he isn't charging at you to give you sample bottles of scope because your breath wafted over to him and wasn't minty fresh. If you have a knife or even a gun in your hand but concealed behind your back, you are going to take a hit from that distance. Get a forearm in the way. Getting stabbed in the forearm sucks, but it beats getting stabbed in the jugular. If you do act properly in that one second of life god has given you to guess right in, and manage to shoot the charging victim his momentum (and the fact he won't die instantly like a magic light switch) will cary him into you. There are very likely to be flash burns on the now hopefully deceased, and there's going to be a fair bit of him all over your clothes... plus some nifty defensive wounds on you. You might think cops aren't all that bright, but this is pretty simple stuff for them.

    1) You're next to your car. He doesn't actually have a car nearby
    2) Your gunpowder is all over him, and his blood is all over you.. and probably some of yours on him.
    3) You've got a gun, and his knife is in your arm (hopefully not your chest).
    4) And your wife saw it all.

    If you want, you can replace "Knife" with "tire iron", "baseball bat", "crow bar" or even "strangulation marks".

    Let me repeat this one more time just in case you guys don't catch it. No one, and I mean no one who is up to any good charges at a person who has warned them to stay away. They mean you harm, and if you hesitate in the least they will inflict it all over you.

    Undoubtedly? Really? Don't you mean, "I assume"?
     
  19. LightningJoe

    LightningJoe Member

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    ClickClick:


    I assume you are a woman. Men don't fight women; they attack them. Shooting even an unarmed attacker (who has been duly warned) is probably OK in that situation if you are a civilian.


    It's different for men (even civilians), unless they are very old and/or seriously handicapped.


    For LEOs (male or female), however, that will not fly. You must be able to contend with an unarmed attacker by less than lethal means. This is one of the great problems with women in the LE role; they have a hard time handling an out-of-control man without shooting him. LEOs work with people, half of all people are men, and far more than half of all criminals are men.


    If you can't handle one man bare-handed, law enforcement is not for you. Please.
     
  20. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    A second assumption of extreamly dubious quality.

    I see, your self defense choices are based on Chuck Norris syndrome. A third, and fourth fatal assumptions on your part.

    3rd: If you really believe that you can take any opponent who comes at you in open handed combat, you are going to end up very dead one day. Now I many be wrong. You may infact have the fighting skills of a young Bruce Lee. The vast majority of us don't though. Remember, there is no clause in any self defense law that says you must give the BG a sporting chance. Lethal force is the proper responce when placed in fear of death or serious bodily injury.

    4th: You assume that because you don't see a weapon when the man begins his charge that he doesn't have one. Fatal assumption. Why would a BG knowingly put himself into an equal odds or worse confrontation? BGs aren't stupid. They fight when they can win and don't engage when they can't. They pick the targets remember. If a BG is engaging you, he's got an advantage you don't know about.
     
  21. LightningJoe

    LightningJoe Member

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    ClickClick:


    Is that in fact your departmental policy in Lewisville?
     
  22. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    A couple of things here.

    1) I live in Lewisville, I don't work there.
    2) Is what department policy?
    3) *** does this have to do with department policy. This discussion is about an encounter by a citizen, not a law enforcement officer.
     
  23. sm

    sm member

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    ClickClickD'oh is sharing some great information some would be wise to read again.

    I want to address this.

    Industry I am familiar with, one has to contend with Professional Thugs; men and women, besides the street punks and other levels of criminals.

    1. Elevator, and this real sexy lady got onto the elevator I was on, and her "job" was to take me down, whether to kill me, or injure me, enough to get the mdse i had on person - or- with me essentially "kidnapped" force others to open a business and safes.
    Damn right I hit a lady, attacked a lady, or whatever else one wants to call it

    2. Re: one person bare handed.

    Do you folks honest to goodness know how street folks operate?

    From Teenage to Elderly, be they men or women, they be on you and shove a "Newspaper Knife" into you before you even know what happened!

    In Jails, Correction Facilities, with LEOs and Correction Officers watching, cameras running, they can take a person down in the blink of an eye and be gone.
    In a parking lot, is a piece of cake.


    One of the oldest ploys is to have a person under a vehicle, another approaches as in this OP, and while one is dealing with the one, scanning, hand on gun or knife. ankles are grabbed and the Mark is down!

    Heads hit pavements, hips get busted, other injuries and all sorts of outcomes.
    They may just take your wallet/purse.
    Add taking the car and leaving you.
    With another passenger, in this case a lady, stunned, shocked, and out of the loop, she is forced to leave in that car, and taken out and had fun with.
    Kids, kids can be taken.


    ClickClickD'oh deals with this on duty , he is sometimes not on duty, or dressed in plain clothes and he has activities of daily living he must do, like go to a grocery store.


    Too many Magic Talismans...Internet is reflecting what society really believes.

    Criminals want society to believe some of this, works to their advantage.
     
  24. sm

    sm member

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    Women.

    There are some real serious misconceptions about women; and women are just as guilty or more guilty of perpetuating some of this.

    Sex or gender is used to advantages of criminals . Called life, deal with it.

    Two ladies came into a retail business, except these ladies were males dressed as ladies. First went in, milled around and was at the back of business. Chatting with the lady bookkeepers, "girl stuff".

    Second came in and they drew weapons. Lady bookkeepers shocked a lady would do that!"

    I was there, hidden, and chose to get a expectant lady out a hidden exit door.


    The "lady" that approached a Sales Rep, for bumping his car while parking, was a guy.
    Sales Rep carried two Glock 10 mm, and never got past getting his hand on one, as his feet were yanked out from under him.
    Busted his hip, and was only early 30's.

    Sad, he did not have his live line worth $750,000, he was being the Decoy.
    My lady partner and I had already left with his line some hours earlier...

    Parking lots, are dangerous.
    Vehicles themselves are dangerous as they are parked, and simply have to be entered and exited.
    One has to approach and one has to depart from a vehicle.
     
  25. Thain

    Thain Member

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    The guy is walking towards you from a car with out of state plates, and is looking for a road in the next town over... Ever stop to think that he might not be a bad guy or a dunce, but is simply lost? :rolleyes:
     
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