Was this a BG or a dunce ?

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Lost is a possibility.

Still from the way I read and interpret the original post, this does not read to me as being a situation for asking for directions.

Nor does it read to me a Schizophrenia lost and asking for directions.

When I ask for directions, I am aware some are going to be leary of me and asking.

I access myself from how others are going to "see" me and go about asking for directions from that perspective.
Whether I am in town, nearby, in state, or out of state.
 
People- read your GUT.- stop thinking so hard and let the information in. If it feels WRONG, it probably IS wrong.
 
I agree with SM, if I have to ask someone for directions I don't rush up to them and I try to maintain some distance. I also will usually go to a gas station to get directions. As someone else said, use your gut, IMO the OP didn't do anything wrong, if it was a innocent encounter no harm/no foul and if it was a setup he was reasonably prepared. If it was a innocent encounter, the guy asking for directions might be a little put off, but perhaps they will see what they did and understand, if not they might get hurt inadvertently.
 
I appreciate the personal stabs click click real high road! You must be so mature to make personal attacks. I hope I grow up some day so I can insult people just like you!:barf: Keep saying you will shoot an unarmed civ. and this forum will come and bite you in the *** one day.
 
I appreciate the personal stabs click click real high road! You must be so mature to make personal attacks. I hope I grow up some day so I can insult people just like you!
What personal attack?

Keep saying you will shoot an unarmed civ. and this forum will come and bite you in the *** one day.
Go take the FL CCW class. I'll give you $50 that says if you ask the instructor they will tell you that you can use lethal force against an unarmed attacker if you feel your life is in danger.
 
Apparently I love my freedom more then some others. Clearly some of us need to be checking up on the self defense laws put into place.
Yeah, you for instance
Check into the Stand Your ground law
If you charge me in a parking lot, expect to get cut, or worse

If you survive the encounter be prepared to explain to the police why you felt the need to physically threaten my family and me better than I can explain why I felt the need to protect my family from a deranged man charging us in a parking lot

No jh9x18ky you did not overreact at all
Waiting for an escalation, as some have suggested would be stupid in my opinion.
You were able to have the knife ready without threatening the guy, what could be wrong with that

The guy may well have been 120 miles lost, I have seen this before
I will typically leave my vehicle to ask for this type of assistance, I feel it is less threatening.

This may very well have been nothing or it could have been a living changing experience
Which way are you going to bet with your family's safety at stake?

When I ask for directions, I am aware some are going to be leary of me and asking
Most people will expect the same of others as we expect of ourselves
Those who practice situational awareness will expect that others will also
Those that don't think the rest of us are as naive as they are.
They're the ones you hear saying
"This is supposed to happen to other people"
We're the ones reading about their misfortune in the paper and using it as justification for not letting people get to close to us in parking lots
 
Well, I guess it's risk vs risk. Some people think the consequences of shooting unarmed people will be zero if they've got a good story. Maybe they're right, but my guess is they're real old guys or on walkers or something like that. Pretty sure it wouldn't work for me. I'd rather fight barehanded against somebody who's unarmed than risk shooting somebody who doesn't need it. Not a universal viewpoint seemingly. But I'm not a secret agent like SM or a highly trained, streetwise pro like ClickClick.
 
Well, I guess it's risk vs risk. Some people think the consequences of shooting unarmed people will be zero if they've got a good story. Maybe they're right, but my guess is they're real old guys or on walkers or something like that. Pretty sure it wouldn't work for me. I'd rather fight barehanded against somebody who's unarmed than risk shooting somebody who doesn't need it. Not a universal viewpoint seemingly. But I'm not a secret agent like SM or a highly trained, streetwise pro like ClickClick.

I'd rather not fight at all. I don't want the potential injuries from a barehanded fight.

To me, there is no such thing as a "fair" fight, I'll use the maximum force available to end a fight right then and there, no matter whether the other person is perceived to be armed or not. I don't know what they've got in their pockets or under their coats.
 
LightningJoe

I'm not a secret agent or streetwise pro either, but I'll tell you what:

I don't get in fist fights/wrestling matches when I'm packing a handgun around.

/Good intentioned people don't charge at the barrel of a loaded firearm.
 
Guns are great. When they are. Other times, they're a liability. Even drawing on an unarmed guy sounds like a bad idea to me. I carry a small gun in my pocket. I won't carry on my belt and I won't carry a gun with which I can't wrestle.


I don't carry a gun because I can't fight or because I'm scared of the world. Some of you guys should just stay home. A guy frickin' asks for directions and it scares the hell out of you. Are you going to shoot somebody? Should you really be carrying? Get one of those shark cages and put wheels on it. Take a nice stay at a sanitarium and come back when you feel better.
 
Conclusions: This person is a threat to me based on his insistance, after verbal warning, to close the distance into threatening range complicated by a cover story that appears to be fabricated. When he charges, he gets two to the chest.

+1

I don't carry a gun because I can't fight or because I'm scared of the world. Some of you guys should just stay home. A guy frickin' asks for directions and it scares the hell out of you. Are you going to shoot somebody? Should you really be carrying? Get one of those shark cages and put wheels on it. Take a nice stay at a sanitarium and come back when you feel better.

You have obviously either never actually been in a fight or at least not in a fight with anyone who actually knew HOW to fight. Fighting sucks, you get hurt, you end up hurting someone, most times at least a little of both. If you are against someone who knows anything you will be hurt a lot. I will pull my carry weapon to keep from being attacked, I will then defend myself with it if need be. And I think I can honestly say that anyone who is "crazy" or "Mean" or "mad" enough to jump me after I pull my weapon is certainly someone worth being afraid of.

BTW I also second the comments about your gut, if it feel wrong, it probably is.
 
Hate to upset folks, but I am not a secret agent.

I was raised into a Hi-Risk Industry. Mentors shared "observe", "pay attention" and the question always asked was "What did you learn Young 'un ?".

Just a brat and it was said I had some "knacks".
Watching dawgs, cats, birds, horses, cows, squirrels,and whatever else as far as critters.
Watching people, kids, men, women, of all kinds.

There is a difference in how a feral cat moves and a cat that lives in a house as a pet.
Animals do things right before it rains, or a cold front comes through.
Men that were doctors and surgeons have different hands than those that are mechanics, carpenters, metal workers.

Ladies that are nurses have different hands , and washed hands different from moms and housewives.

I'd seen the Beat Cop downtown, he was nice and great to kids.
I knew that was him out of uniform and could not see his face or his hair, that guy walked like that Beat Cop and sure enough, when we caught up, it was him.

I was raised into a Hi-Risk industry, and even way back then, a BG would kidnap a kid, to get adults to access valuables.

I had some "knacks" and I had my Mentors and Elders that includes a lot of folks, men and women, from all walks of life and experiences.

There was no gun schools, no training facilities, unless one went into the Military or Law Enforcement.
And one thing that always came out, was how folks raised "back when" has some common sense, smarts, and just paid attention and observed.

Country Folks going off to war, and the Country ways of reading weather, how to read folks, trails, sounds (trains, planes) and just growing up knowing how to shoot, as they did not like going hungry.
These skills assisted in War.


City Folks, had smarts too, and while some were raised in the country, some were not. So little things they had learned, assisted them in war.
Applies to Cops.

Doctors and Nurses can read folks real well - and this before ever asking a question to access or diagnose.

Teachers can read a classroom, and can tell when a kid is happy, sad, or something bothering them.
They know, by reading a kid, "something" like a new puppy is coming, puppy died, or the puppy was not around that morning before they left for school and worried.

Fellow down on his luck hanging around a bus station carries himself different than a criminal , shoulders are "carried" different, the walk, how they look /don't look at folks.

Folks can read family members. Oh one knows darn well wife and kids have a surprise, or kid goofed up and hangs that head, droops them shoulders and walks over a certain way and "I messed up and broke my toy".
This is different than that kid running into a room, jumping up and hugging a parents neck finding a toy on their bed coming in from school.

Yes, I was around Body Guards, I was bonded and licensed to do my work.
Cops, including Undercover Cops were folks trusted in and use in the work I did.
I had folks in Military and Law Enforcement share with me, and some were not from my state, or from the US.
Some had ties to Israel, UK, South Africa, and other places.

Bonded , and Insured and part of the deal, I was to never set foot in NY, or Chicago, and a few other places.
Exception was extreme emergency, and if these "emergencies" occurred I was going to be swamped with Security, and I had information and all that needed to be used, and all.
I never had to do this, thankfully, as that would have meant really bad news.

Still, some LE and I worked together. I knew the business facets and run certain circles.
Professional Thugs do Professional crimes.
They kidnap, they bypass alarms, they use burn bars to get into safes, they fence valuables and all sorts of things.

Tight circle of trusted folks. I am a Southern born and bred. I know the business.
Some Postal Inspector from up North talking as Yankees do, and the situation was one of the folks in my industry turning against like kind, and one of my buddies a Sales Rep getting hurt...
I wanted in.
Matter of principle, we took care of our own, and everyone's welfare was that important.
She knows squat about some Southern ways and norms. I grew up with this.
So I do my thing, with her, and others and we did what needed doing.

My LE friends, I had put me in jail. I wanted all my senses to pick up what was going on.
I'd take a swig of booze, splash some on, and come into a station house just a cussing , raising hell, fighting officers, and get hit with a baton too.

Oh I was ugly, hateful to the "heat" and "pigs" and whatever slur there was.
I observed, paid attention, spit my instant coffee at the officer coming into cell block and threw my baloney sandwich at him...


Later I would use what learned to stay safe on the streets.
One cannot get some things anywhere else, except by doing, and associating with certain kind of folks.
i.e.
Simple things that signal folks, like splitting a match from a matchbook.
In jail, the "cart" only come around so often. So those in jails split a match to make the book last longer to lit a smoke hand rolled with papers and tobacco.
So I'd split a match to light a smoke on the streets, and eyes picked up on that, and "he has been in". The exact perception I wanted to give out.

But I have staggered on a parking lot, looking like some drunk long haired hippie, approached Professional Thugs and distracted long enough for a sales rep to leave, or a sales rep to drive into a building with vehicle access.

I have looked like some Hi-Roller with talcum powder in my nose to look like Coke to inspect something with a UC lady Cop pretending to be hi-priced Escort, and I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that was the mdse stolen, shipped through USPS, and my buddy was hurt over.

Secret Agent - No.
Just paying attention.

Hardest thing for a Cop to do when doing UC, is to not look or act like a Cop.
If I have snatched "something" once out of a shirt pocket , I have a hundred times.

Jeff White and I spoke of these things, he understands this.
He and I together look like a couple of guys that met attending kids school events or something, not anything as we really are.

Jeff does not have the "cop signals" as many cops do.
He argues with me about that, but what does he know ? *grin*


Professional Thugs and me and mine had a Respect if you will.
Makes no sense I know.
Colombians don't do this by the way...none I got too close to anyway.

Still I have had phone calls from enemies, even notes.
Parking lot, with a fence between us. Them and his, me and mine.

Person to Person I speak to a gentleman, and he informs me, "truce".
He has a Special Anniversary and he and his wife are going out, to eat, dance and have a good time.
He is taking time to see his daughter do something at her school.

"Would like to meet my wife, she is a great lady?" he asks.
"I would be honored, and I have no doubt she is a lady". I reply

Lincoln eases up, a door is opened , she steps out, approaches with her arm on her husbands, and I tip my hat, she bows and we are introduced.

Nothing happened, this guy kept his word, on what his "business" was.
So for a time, we had a "truce" and it was nice.
His folks did give some punks a headache, they busted into one of his places, vandals, and were caught.
Not a real good idea to vandalize property owned by such folks.


TV, magazines, books, movies, - something - changed how folks choose to perceive the world for themselves.
Seasoned Cops have shared time and time again, how they have to "de-program" the new folks, and get them "set straight" on what really goes on.
Textbook on Domestic Violence, is a bit different from that first response for many.
So are many other things.


Why does a homeless person wear so many clothes?
Even in Summer?

1. Protects from being knifed, hit with sticks and bottles, kicked, other make-shift weapons and harm to body.

2. "Backpack" with all possessions are on person, he/she has possessions at all times, even asleep. Concealed is concealed

3. Hands are free.


Today folks would be wise to pay attention to SouthNarc, Fred Perrin and others.
Turn off the TV and read Papillon, there are some real "street tips" in that book.
[Adult material, parental discretion advised]



The answers to a lot of life's questions come from within.
All one has to do is stop, pay attention, look around and think.
 
ihopewewin wrote:


If he did come at you what would you have done? You can't stab a man for running at you.

Says who? I'd do it. Would with a firearm too.

Have fun sitting in jail for most likely the rest of your life.

You can't be serious.

Seriously, I am thinking you have no concept of assault.

It works like this:

You don't wait UNTIL the man charging you makes contact before you can assess your situation. Think about it... you see a bull charging... you think he is coming over to lick your face? People can and do make calls based upon situations. The courts have repeatedly upheld this. If you live where they don't, you could consider a U-Haul.


LighteningJoe wrote:

I'd rather fight barehanded against somebody who's unarmed than risk shooting somebody who doesn't need it. Not a universal viewpoint seemingly. But I'm not a secret agent like SM or a highly trained, streetwise pro like ClickClick.


Sounds good. I've never been afraid to fight a fair fight. In fact, I used to compete in Kickboxing. I'm not all that concerned about if I can take a punch.

At the same time, I am not going to get myself in situation where there are too many uncontrolable varibles to contend with.

Here's a little story that can illustrate. Forgive me if it is a bit longer than I'd like.

A few months ago, I had to make a stop of trespassers on our land late one night in the middle of the week. I had to follow him for a while, and decided that if he left our property without stopping, I'd turn around and be gone. When the person finally stopped, he immediately jumped out of the vehicle and started making long strides towards me. I sternly told him not to come any closer and to identify himself from where he was.

He ignored me and kept coming. I repeated my request and when he started to approach a distance where he could do something, I drew on him and repeated my request for a third time.

It turns out that he was a 19 year old kid trying to get his date drunk for a little fun. I could smell the beer all over him. It is still my gut feeling that he was coming to physically confront me.

The next day, I went through the situation with my father and told him the details. My father is a very peaceful man, and carefully considers his actions. I find that he is a good person to discuss situations with and I often consider him a barometer for proper action.

I asked him if he thought I was a little paranoid for drawing when he refused to stop.


He responded my telling me the story of one of his close friends growing up. In the course of some event in traffic, the person in the car in front of him got out of the car and closed distance similar to how this kid did with me. My father's friend was expecting either a verbal altercation or the possibility of getting a punch thrown at him.

What he didn't expect is that the person coming had a trailer ball cupped in the palm of his hand. He struck my father's friend in the side of the head and caved it in. He was dead before he hit the ground.



No... If I want to fight, I'll get in the ring. I have no interest in doing so in the streets against a person who likely has set the situation up to his advantage. I mean think about it. How many people just on this thread carry a folding knife? Besides, let us not forget that the people posting here are the ones carrying on with their lives and NOT looking for ANY altercations.

The world would be a great place if everyone fought fair. It doesn't work that way, and I have no intention to be the only "fair" fighter in an unfair fight. They call that guy "victim."


And as said on a few posts, before one lectures others about self-defense laws, it is often a good idea to know them yourself. And do remember that what may not be allowed under the law in YOUR jurisdiction may well be within the law in others. Its a good idea to know the laws of your jurisdiction and possibly a few cases where those laws have been applied. Then, it's a VERY good idea to not assume everywhere else has the same laws of your jurisdiction.





-- John
 
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At least I've been there.

I do suspect that you have experiences that drive your reasoning, and I respect your reasoning. Simiarly, others have been placed in equally trying situations. Each must find their own answers within themselves, and within the law.

I'm not shooting anybody who doesn't have a weapon is his hand. If you do, maybe I'll read about you.

By the same token, we often read about people in the obituaries who incorrectly assessed their situation. I know more than one who made that mistake personally.

Let us not forget that situations are dynamic. Regardless of what many will say, there IS a certain amount of situational distance that has to be crossed from the potential of a threat, to an actual threat, to taking steps to avoid a theat, and then to shooting the threat.

Some people seem to believe that a draw MUST and WILL end in a shot. It doesn't. Now, I do not believe that a weapon should be drawn if the person is incapable of firing, but the idea that a shot WILL HAVE to result is hogwash.

As I have already indicated on this thread, I know that it just isn't the case.


And because of that, it isn't worth getting my skull crushed in to find out.



I learned to read in school.


You lost me here.



-- John
 
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LightningJoe, guessing by your listed location, you are somewhere in Texas.

Have you taken the Texas CHL class or any of the penal code classes offered by many local community colleges? I'm just wondering since you apparently won't use your weapon because you don't feel justified in the belief that you life is in danger since it's your belief that you can safetly fight off your attacker. You see though, there's more to the Texas Penal Codes allowance for the use of deadly force. Countering deadly force is 9.32(a)(3)(A). Please read 9.32(a)(3)(B)

§ 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31;
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor.

Would you say that it's reasonable to believe that a robbery is about to occur in the situation compounded in post #2?


BTW: ihopewewin, here is the Florida law for the application of lethal force in self defense.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

Please take note that like the Texas Penal Code, there is no requirement for the attacker to be armed in order to use lethal force in self defense.
 
You lost me here.


That's OK.


People don't have an intuitive grasp of large numbers. That's why they don't understand odds. What're your chances of winning the lottery? As good as anyone else's? No. Zero.


But I heard of a guy who won. Yes, but that won't be you. Wny not? Big numbers. Inverted. 0.0000000001.


Could an unarmed guy kill you? Yes. 0.000001. Could you become a murderer and go to prison? Yes. 99.99999.


See?
 
Click you do what you do and i'll do what I do. At the end of the day I will be in my home watching the tube while you will be behind bars. You can explain to the judge why you thought your life was in danger from an UNARMED man asking for DIRECTIONS. Then tell his wife and kids that were waiting in the car why you murdered their father. Then ring me up and tell me you did the right thing.
 
Ihopewewin - What part of the above posts are you missing? It's been clearly pointed out what the laws are in various areas regarding allowable use of deadly force, and yet you still insist to have the one right answer. The fact is, based on the OP's post, there are many areas of the country that if the man had continued approcaching, he could legally have had force (up to and including deadly force) used against him. That's the facts, and that's ALL that ClickClick is saying.

If you have an issue with that set of facts, or the way that they are accepted by others, that's fine. But your assertion that at then end of the day you'll be safe at home enjoying time with your family while ClickClick will be behind bars is simply false, and repeating it over and over again will serve no other purpose than to make you look foolish.
 
ClickClickD'oh,

Thanks for posting the statutes.

Folks,
If your wife, daughter, mother, whomever is approached in a parking lot, consider her size against a male.
It does not have to be a 6'3" 260 pound male.

Can she honest to goodness defend herself , unarmed, against a male 5' 10 and 160 pounds? Now this person might be Sober, then again drunk, jonesing for a fix, coming down off one, and who knows!

Ask Professional LE's what a scrawny teenage kid on PCP can be like.
One second "ok" next split second this hyped up kid is taking on bigger officers, and more than one.
It often times takes more than one trained officer to get this kid down and cuffed.

Disparity of force - you have a 5'2" 110 pound lady approached, and she has a right [ see the stats above] to defend against an un armed person.

Now add the Physically Limited, maybe a person, male or female with a Leg Prosthesis, Walker, Cane, Wheelchair...

You ever been in a wheelchair, or Amigo? I have, and I felt vulnerable.
REAL Vulnerable using the lift on a Handicapped equipped van.

I got flipped and was down so fast on that lift, I could not believe it, and I knew I was going to be, as that is what we were doing with these folks, assisting them in staying safe.

Made sense to me to "limit" myself and get into a wheelchair / onto a Amigo and use that lift.

I am 6' 170 pounds.
Let me share, being in a wheelchair, or on an Amigo, and having a "girl" only 5'4" and 135 #'s approach in a "suspicious manner" is a bit odd.

Lessons and all and I got bested by girl and me getting being the "handicapped one".
Thank good for physically limited folks, they are the ones that were telling what to do, and I was learning from them!


Real life, I was hurt (car incident) and in a wheelchair, with armed folks and I was under meds, hurt and goofy and my folks did not take chances with me on a parking lot.


Some of the lessons we learn, might not apply to ourselves - instead be invaluable to another, and their locale and situations.
 
This has been an interesting thread, and overall, I'd have to say that jh9x18ky did well.

Too many people just don't seem to understand that more often than not, if you wait 'til you're already under attack to draw that weapon you have tucked in your pocket, you've already lost.

Also, when it comes to shooting or stabbing someone who's attacking me, whether I see a weapon on them or not, you can put me firmly in the "Oh hell yeah" column.

I'm also all for being prepared to do just that any time a stranger of questionable motivation approaches. After all, being prepared to doesn't mean you have to.



J.C.
 
LighteningJoe wrote:

Quote:
You lost me here.


That's OK.


People don't have an intuitive grasp of large numbers. That's why they don't understand odds. What're your chances of winning the lottery? As good as anyone else's? No. Zero.

No, you lost me with


If you do, maybe I'll read about you. I learned to read in school.

Maybe... just perhaps you lost me with your obtuse statements which failed to communicate your thoughts. You see, we learned to read in school as well. I honed that literacy with a Bachelor's degree in English (among others) and communications became somewhat of an art for me with a Masters in Public Relations. As for large numbers.... well, I suspect that I DO have a grasp--considering I've been a stockbroker for the last decade and a half.

No, you lost me because you made no sense. Even your explaination failed to tie into your original statement. Pray tell how an understanding of large numbers has ANYTHING to do with the fact that you learned to read in school? You may know that large numbers are those things with lots of zeros behind them, but you failed to convey your meaning with your words.


For the record, your statement:

Could an unarmed guy kill you? Yes. 0.000001. Could you become a murderer and go to prison? Yes. 99.99999.


is completely invalid. For starters, I'd LOVE to see you cite anything resembling those statistics. Frankly, I know of DOZENS of cases over my life where your assumption fails to hold.



-- John
 
You can explain to the judge why you thought your life was in danger from an UNARMED man asking for DIRECTIONS
But that statement completely ignores this added aspect of the scenario
You can't stab a man for running at you
Which is really odd since you are the one that introduced it

You have been given some excellent sources to research to actually educate yourself on the matter
But instead you choose to argue from a position of expertise with men who have actually lived long enough to have been through situations like this, instead of forming their opinions based on what they see on TV

I see you haven't bothered to look at the pertinent law that would apply here, even though it was spoon fed to you by Click
Try looking up a couple of more things

21 foot rule
OODA loop
Then come back and tell us just how long you would wait before putting your hand on your weapon
 
You can explain to the judge why you thought your life was in danger from an UNARMED man asking for DIRECTIONS.
Why do you insist on ingnoring that I am responding to the conditional you introduced in post #2? I think I made that absolutely clear in post #18.

For absolute clarity, here is the conditional again:
If he did come at you what would you have done? You can't stab a man for running at you.

This is not about a person asking directions. This is about a person actively attacking you.
 
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