Washington state magazine capacity and concealed carry question

[tominboise]

I live in Idaho and have an enhanced CCW license, which is recognized by the state of Washington. With the new ban on importing "high capacity" magazines, I presume that it's illegal for me to carry a handgun with a 12 round mag, even though I am not a resident, when I travel into the state? I assume that I have to have 10 round magazines?

 

[herrwalther]

That is typically how concealed carry reciprocity works. When I travel to VT to visit, I carry a handgun that has a 12 round magazine. VT bans magazines above 15 rounds in handguns.

In the bill full text I don't see anything where an Idaho resident would be allowed magazines that they ban. Punishment is gross misdemeanor.

https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/bien...ed Legislature/5078-S.PL.pdf?q=20220629102203

 

[unclenunzie]

I would adhere strictly to the law of the jurisdiction I am in at the time (fed/state/local). Err on the side of caution. If 10 is the limit that's what I would take with me, nothing larger. I would also make sure I understood all aspects of carry law in the destination state. What's allowed, where, when, etc. Good luck in your travels.

 

[bearcreek]

I live in Idaho and have an enhanced CCW license, which is recognized by the state of Washington. With the new ban on importing "high capacity" magazines, I presume that it's illegal for me to carry a handgun with a 12 round mag, even though I am not a resident, when I travel into the state? I assume that I have to have 10 round magazines?

Since Washington does not ban the possession of over 10 rd magazines, it seems that it depends on how they define "import". Quote from the link that herrwalther provided.

38) "Import" means to move, transport, or receive an item from a place outside the territorial limits of the state of Washington to a place inside the territorial limits of the state of Washington. "Import" does not mean situations where an individual possesses a large capacity magazine when departing from, and returning to, Washington state, so long as the individual is returning to Washington in possession of the same large capacity magazine the individual transported out of state.

It does not appear to me that personal possessions that are transported into and then out of the state by a visitor would meet the definition of "imports". Hopefully someone more familiar with Washington law will weigh in.

 

[RickD427]

Since Washington does not ban the possession of over 10 rd magazines, it seems that it depends on how they define "import". Quote from the link that herrwalther provided.

38) "Import" means to move, transport, or receive an item from a place outside the territorial limits of the state of Washington to a place inside the territorial limits of the state of Washington. "Import" does not mean situations where an individual possesses a large capacity magazine when departing from, and returning to, Washington state, so long as the individual is returning to Washington in possession of the same large capacity magazine the individual transported out of state.

It does not appear to me that personal possessions that are transported into and then out of the state by a visitor would meet the definition of "imports". Hopefully someone more familiar with Washington law will weigh in.

Mr. Bearcreek,

I'd have to respectfully suggest that you've parsed out the content of Washington's definition of "Import" backwards, and that has led to an incorrect conclusion.

Methinks that if an Idaho resident brings a large capacity into Washington state, and then later returns to Idaho with that same large capacity magazine, that they have violated the Washington statute.

The exception to the definition of "Import" quoted above is the reason. Let's look at how the exception is defined:

1) The person must possess the large capacity magazine when departing the state of Washington.

2) They must return to Washington with the same large capacity magazine that they departed with.

3) The context of the definition, when read in conjunction with the new Section 3 of RCW 9.41 is that a person who does both of the above does not "Import" the large capacity magazine into Washington when they return.

It's important to note that the language used in defining the exception is asymmetric. It only applies if the magazine starts in Washington, then leaves, and then returns. It appears that you're trying to give it a symmetric application where the magazine starts in Idaho, goes to Washington, and the returns to Idaho. The way its worded, it don't work both ways.

Hopefully this will be a short-lived problem. Please follow the case of Duncan v Becerra which is currently in the Federal Court for the Southern District of California on remand from the Ninth Circuit. It challenges California's ban on large-capacity magazines. It was remanded following the Supreme Court's decision in NYSRPA. There has just been a federal court challenge filed against Washington's new law.

 

[LiveLife]

Please follow the case of Duncan v Becerra which is currently in the Federal Court for the Southern District of California on remand from the Ninth Circuit. It challenges California's ban on large-capacity magazines. It was remanded following the Supreme Court's decision in NYSRPA.

We may get a ruling on Duncan v Bonta by December reaffirming previous ruling by the same district court judge Benitez who ruled with judgement that CA's ban on larger than 10 round capacity magazines was unconstitutional. Here's the latest update - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-9#post-12421032

Chances are CA will appeal the case to the 9th Circuit but since the Supreme Court eliminated the two-step approach for the Bruen ruling; and having remanded the Duncan case back down to 9th Circuit En Banc panel, who then remanded the case back down to the district court, case appealed to the 9th Circuit will now be reconsidered with "text and history" approach only.

And if 9th Circut rules Duncan case unconstituional (Plausibly likely post Bruen ruling), since state of WA is in the 9th Circuit, be affected.

 

[bearcreek]

Mr. Bearcreek,

I'd have to respectfully suggest that you've parsed out the content of Washington's definition of "Import" backwards, and that has led to an incorrect conclusion.

Methinks that if an Idaho resident brings a large capacity into Washington state, and then later returns to Idaho with that same large capacity magazine, that they have violated the Washington statute.

The exception to the definition of "Import" quoted above is the reason. Let's look at how the exception is defined:

1) The person must possess the large capacity magazine when departing the state of Washington.

2) They must return to Washington with the same large capacity magazine that they departed with.

3) The context of the definition, when read in conjunction with the new Section 3 of RCW 9.41 is that a person who does both of the above does not "Import" the large capacity magazine into Washington when they return.

It's important to note that the language used in defining the exception is asymmetric. It only applies if the magazine starts in Washington, then leaves, and then returns. It appears that you're trying to give it a symmetric application where the magazine starts in Idaho, goes to Washington, and the returns to Idaho. The way its worded, it don't work both ways.

Hopefully this will be a short-lived problem. Please follow the case of Duncan v Becerra which is currently in the Federal Court for the Southern District of California on remand from the Ninth Circuit. It challenges California's ban on large-capacity magazines. It was remanded following the Supreme Court's decision in NYSRPA. There has just been a federal court challenge filed against Washington's new law.

Not really what I was getting at, but I see why you might think that I was. I've just never heard of a place considering an individual's personal possessions to be "imports". Are you "importing your pants when you go to a different state? I don't know for sure. Your post does bring up an interesting question though. I own "large capacity" magazines that were purchased in Washington state. Assuming, for the moment, that you're right, if I returned to Washington with those magazines, would they be legal then? The statute doesn't mention the person having to be a Washington resident.

 

[dweis]

Why not just call the Washington State’s Attorney General’s Office and ask for a clarification? That would be a better source for accurate information than a forum like this one.

 

[bearcreek]

Why not just call the Washington State’s Attorney General’s Office and ask for a clarification? That would be a better source for accurate information than a forum like this one.

Normally State's Attorney Generals do not give legal advice to private individuals.

 

[tominboise]

All this discussion is great info and I appreciate the responses. My plan is to use 10 round magazines on this trip. Unfortunately, I am sure people will cross the Washington state line when traveling with greater then 10 round capacity mags and violate this law. I hope the court rules in our favor. At one point, I thought the FOPA was supposed to cover issues like this.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Why not just call the Washington State’s Attorney General’s Office and ask for a clarification? That would be a better source for accurate information than a forum like this one.

They probably won't give you any legal advice. I've tried that with other WA state agencies regarding code but not the AG's office. I'll assume it will be the same response but you could try.

 

[CoalTrain49]

WA law is so arcane that I just use my own judgement after reading the text thoroughly. You would have to hire an attorney to get a legal opinion for just about all of WA firearms laws and it still might not be what a judge would rule if you were prosecuted.

I just try to stay informed and abide by what I think the legal mumbo jumbo is trying to say. Personally, I wouldn't carry a >10 rd magazine in this state unless I was a resident and the magazine was purchased before the July cut off date. My reasoning is that reciprocity has nothing to do with the state magazine restrictions. I have a permit to carry but I still can't own or carry >10 unless I owned those magazines before July 1.

I'm not holding my breath and thinking the USSC will change states rights regarding firearms or magazine capacity.

 

[RickD427]

Not really what I was getting at, but I see why you might think that I was. I've just never heard of a place considering an individual's personal possessions to be "imports". Are you "importing your pants when you go to a different state? I don't know for sure. Your post does bring up an interesting question though. I own "large capacity" magazines that were purchased in Washington state. Assuming, for the moment, that you're right, if I returned to Washington with those magazines, would they be legal then? The statute doesn't mention the person having to be a Washington resident.

Let's look at the actual definition of the word "Import" as used in the Washington statute, and then we'll apply that definition to your pants. Here's the definition:

"Import" means to move, transport, or receive an item from a place outside the territorial limits of the state of Washington to a place inside the territorial limits of the state of Washington. "Import" does not mean situations where an individual possesses a large capacity magazine when departing from, and returning to, Washington state, so long as the individual is returning to Washington in possession of the same large capacity magazine the individual transported out of state.
​

Please note that the definition makes no difference between "personal possessions" and any other kind of stuff. It only concerns "items". If your pants are an "item", then they're covered by the definition. If your large-capacity magazine is an "item", then it's also covered.

Now let's look at the movement part of the definition. If your pants start off being in your possession outside of territorial limits of Washington, and you take them to a place inside the territorial limits of Washington, then you have imported them within the meaning of the above definition. So , "Yes", you would have imported your pants.

Now, note that the exception applies if you initially possessed the pants inside Washington, then removed them from the state, and then returned them to Washington. One key thing to note about the word usage in the definition is that the same person must remove the magazine from the state, as does return the magazine. If the Fred takes the magazine outta the state, and Bill brings it back, then Bill has unlawfully imported the magazine.

You appear to be making a very commonly made mistake of using words according to their commonly understood meanings when interpreting a statute. That can get you into major league trouble. One of the shenanigans that our elected representatives often employ is to use a common word in a statute, in a way that gains support, and then to define it slightly differently in the statute, in a way that suits their purpose. You gotta be careful to watch out for that (stufff).

 

[RickD427]

All this discussion is great info and I appreciate the responses. My plan is to use 10 round magazines on this trip. Unfortunately, I am sure people will cross the Washington state line when traveling with greater then 10 round capacity mags and violate this law. I hope the court rules in our favor. At one point, I thought the FOPA was supposed to cover issues like this.

Tom,

The FOPA (18USC926A) employs the term "Firearms" to describe what is protected. I'm not aware of any Federal or Washington case law that has considered whether a "Magazine" is a "Firearm." There is California case law that does hold that a magazine can be treated as a firearm.

The other problem with the FOPA is that is does not provide an effective remedy if your rights are violated. The Second Circuit considered several FOPA violations in the consolidated cases of Toracco and Winstanley V Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. The cases all involved plaintiffs who were arrested, or delayed in travel, while transiting through New York airports. The court ruled that the FOPA did not create any "right" for which they could sue for the violation of. Although not clear in the record, it does appear that two of the plaintiffs were able to employ the FOPA to prevail in their criminal cases.

 

[unclenunzie]

One other point to make about FOPA protections - it requires what you are transporting to be legal in both the starting state and the destination state. If either state law has been violated FOPA protections evaporate.

 

[LiveLife]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, just a layperson

Why not just call the Washington State’s Attorney General’s Office and ask for a clarification? That would be a better source for accurate information than a forum like this one.

Normally State's Attorney Generals do not give legal advice to private individuals.

CA state Attorney General's website is VERY CLEAR about firearm and magazine laws - https://oag.ca.gov/firearms

And answer to concealed carry permit reciprocity is a CLEAR "No" - https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#12

I live in another state and have a permit to carry a concealed handgun that was issued in my home state. Does my permit allow me to carry a concealed handgun while in California?

No​

Same seems to be the case for WA and these are straight from WA state's Attorney General's website - https://www.atg.wa.gov/firearms

High-Capacity Magazine Restrictions - On July 1, 2022, a law prohibiting the sale, attempted sale, manufacture and distribution of high-capacity magazines that hold more than 10 rounds went into effect in Washington. The law does not prohibit the possession of high-capacity magazines.​

I live in Idaho and have an enhanced CCW license, which is recognized by the state of Washington. With the new ban on importing "high capacity" magazines, I presume that it's illegal for me to carry a handgun with a 12 round mag, even though I am not a resident, when I travel into the state? I assume that I have to have 10 round magazines?

Best option may be to contact the local enforcement agencies of region you plan on visiting and ask them directly. I am quite certain local law enforcement agencies will give you CLEAR answers to what they WILL ENFORCE, particularly for out-of-state visitors.


From Attorney General's "Firearms FAQ" page, here are some information that may answer your questions/concerns regarding conceal carrying in WA with larger than 10 round capacity magazines as out-of-state visitor - https://www.atg.wa.gov/ConcealedWeapons/FAQ.aspx

I will be visiting Washington and want to continue carrying a concealed pistol. What does Washington law require I do?

Except in your home or fixed place of business, and subject to the exceptions listed in RCW 9.41.060, under RCW 9.41.050 you cannot carry a pistol concealed on your person in Washington without a license or permit to carry a concealed pistol. Additional information about carrying a pistol in Washington can be found in RCW 9.41.050. Please visit our concealed pistol license reciprocity page for detailed information about whether Washington will recognize a concealed pistol license or permit issued to you by another state.
​

And "concealed pistol license reciprocity" page says only "Enhanced" Idaho CCW permit is recognized but you must carry "in accordance" with WA law.

Concealed Pistol License Reciprocity - https://www.atg.wa.gov/concealed-pistol-license-reciprocity

With certain qualifications as indicated, the following table lists the states ... from which a concealed pistol license or permit issued by those states will be recognized in Washington so long as the pistol is carried in accordance with Washington law

Idaho - Enhanced Permit only​

What does Washington’s law related to high-capacity magazines prohibit?​

The law prohibits the sale, attempted sale, manufacture and distribution of magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds. Read the bill as passed by the Legislature.


I own magazines that hold more than 10 rounds that were legal to purchase before the law went into effect. Am I still allowed to keep them?

Washington’s law does not ban possession of high-capacity magazines. [ETA: Section (38) speaks to large capacity magazines that were in WA before law went into effect in July 2022]

​

So if you have "Enhanced Permit" from Idaho, it is recognized in the state of Washington but you must carry in accordance to WA law. WA law prohibits the sale, attempted sale, [import], manufacture and distribution of high-capacity magazines.

So the question comes down to whether 12 round magazine you own is legal to be brought into WA under your conceal carry reciprocity from Idaho and the answer may lie with the words "... so long as the pistol is carried in accordance with Washington law ... The law prohibits the sale, attempted sale, [import], manufacture and distribution of magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds" and "Washington’s law does not ban possession of high-capacity magazines."

Does conceal carrying under reciprocity 12 round magazine the act of import and/or distribution of magazines? If it was me, I would want to be sure.

Section (38) speaks to large capacity magazines that were in WA before law went into effect in July 2022 and there is no provision for bringing in larger than 10 round capacity magazine into the state under conceal carry reciprocity.

 

[tominboise]

Thank you for the analysis. I do possess an Idaho "Enhanced" Permit.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....It does not appear to me that personal possessions that are transported into and then out of the state by a visitor would meet the definition of "imports".

And that is wrong.

The Washington statute is clear that the exception to the ban on importing prohibited magazines would apply ONLY to someone who possessed the magazines in Washington State, left the State with them, and returned with them.

RickD427's analysis is correct. See posts 5 and 13.

 

[LiveLife]

The Washington statute is clear that the exception to the ban on importing prohibited magazines would apply ONLY to someone who possessed the magazines in Washington State, left the State with them, and returned with them.

Looks that way as section (38) on page 8 speaks to "large capacity" magazine returning to WA state is not "Import" if the same magazine originally left the state - https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Bills/Senate Passed Legislature/5078-S.PL.pdf#page=1

(37) "Distribute" means to give out, provide, make available, or deliver a ... large capacity magazine to any person in this state, with or without consideration, whether the distributor is in state or out-of-state. "Distribute" includes, but is not limited to, filling orders placed in this state, online or otherwise. "Distribute" also includes causing a ... large capacity magazine to be delivered in this state.

(38) "Import" means to move, transport, or receive an item from a place outside the territorial limits of the state of Washington to a place inside the territorial limits of the state of Washington. "Import" does not mean situations where an individual possesses a large capacity magazine when departing from, and returning to, Washington state, so long as the individual is returning to Washington in possession of the same large capacity magazine the individual transported out of state.
​

And new Section 3 (2)a - c provides exceptions where "distribute/import" do not apply, mainly to certain gun dealers (Pages 8-9).

Hopefully, anticipated ruling on Duncan v Bonta and subsequent appeals post Bruen ruling will permanently address magazine capacity ban issue for all 9th Circuit states, perhaps for the entire nation.

 

[herrwalther]

At one point, I thought the FOPA was supposed to cover issues like this.

No. FOPA only is intended to protect travel through a state where a firearm or accessory is legal in the origin and destination states. In theory, I can drive from Alabama to Vermont with firearms, ammo, and magazines in the car (following FOPA requirements) that are illegal in states along the way and be protected. That is not always the case, as some states like to thumb their nose at FOPA and arrest people anyway. Yeah, charges might get dropped under FOPA but not after being massively inconvenienced and likely expensive. Seeing as how the post is asking about WA as a destination with high capacity magazines under state law, FOPA does not apply.

Based on other websites such as USCCA, the benefit of the enhanced license is reciprocity with other states. But you still have to abide by their rules as far as nuances like magazine limits.

 

[bearcreek]

And that is wrong.

The Washington statute is clear that the exception to the ban on importing prohibited magazines would apply ONLY to someone who possessed the magazines in Washington State, left the State with them, and returned with them.

RickD427's analysis is correct. See posts 5 and 13.

So I could carry the magazines that I bought in WA when traveling there?

 

[Old Dog]

Interesting thread on this very topic on Northwestfirearms.com, our regional gun forum.

According to William Kirk -- an actual attorney who practices in Washington state -- the OP might be within the law bringing his legally-owned, more than ten round capacity magazines, for his legally-carried handgun, into Washington state.

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/t...-out-of-wa-state-on-after-july-1-2022.410662/

 

[LiveLife]

According to William Kirk -- an actual attorney who practices in Washington state -- the OP might be within the law bringing his legally-owned, more than ten round capacity magazines, for his legally-carried handgun, into Washington state.

Only if OP "transports" same magazines out of WA state, according to attorney William Kirk.

Washington Gun Law President, William Kirk, discusses the not-so-uncommon instance in which an individual who resides out of state wishes to enter Washington possessing what we now refer to as "high capacity magazines." ... Are they engaged in the act of unlawfully "importing" high capacity magazines as now prohibited by SB 5078. We examine the law and the actual definition of "import" to actually get you an answer to this question.​

At 4:45 minute of video, issue of out-of-state visitor "transporting" larger than 10 round capacity magazine into WA state then "transporting" same magazine out of state is addressed and clarified as not "importing".

Not sure if I want to be the test case for this ... Say you were stopped at the Idaho/Washington border and revealed you are bringing in larger than 10 round capacity magazine into WA but only plan on "transporting" while conceal carrying under reciprocity ... I guess you could contact WA state border station and ask ... curious as to what they would say.

 

[RickD427]

Only if OP "transports" same magazines out of WA state, according to attorney William Kirk.

Washington Gun Law President, William Kirk, discusses the not-so-uncommon instance in which an individual who resides out of state wishes to enter Washington possessing what we now refer to as "high capacity magazines." ... Are they engaged in the act of unlawfully "importing" high capacity magazines as now prohibited by SB 5078. We examine the law and the actual definition of "import" to actually get you an answer to this question.​

At 4:45 minute of video, issue of out-of-state visitor "transporting" larger than 10 round capacity magazine into WA state then "transporting" same magazine out of state is addressed and clarified as not "importing".

Not sure if I want to be the test case for this ... Say you were stopped at the Idaho/Washington border and revealed you are bringing in larger than 10 round capacity magazine into WA but only plan on "transporting" while conceal carrying under reciprocity ... I guess you could contact WA state border station and ask ... and curious as to what they would say.

I did watch the entire video, and Mr. Kirk does seem to clearly state his opinion that a person who brings a large-capacity magazine into Washington, and then removes it from the state has not "Imported" the magazine. He is clearly arguing that the statute applies symmetrically regardless of where the magazine starts its journey.

I'll also observe that the text of the statute provides quite the opposite. The law applies asymmetrically, only to cases where the magazine starts is journey in Washington.

It would be good to hear Mr. Kirk explain further on the "Symmetric or Asymmetric" aspect of the law.

IANAL, but I've prepared tons of criminal cases for trial. Before anyone suggests that Mr. Kirk is to be believed simply because he is a lawyer, let me point out that in every trial, one attorney "wins" and one attorney "loses". No one has a 1.000 batting average. But at the same time, I'd really like to hear his explanation.

 

[cjwils]

Some posters suggested asking the Washington State Attorney General for a ruling. However, the AG's website says the following about requests from citizens:

"The Attorney General’s Office provides formal written opinions about constitutional or legal questions when requested by statewide elected officials, members of the Legislature, appointed heads of state agencies, and county prosecuting attorneys. The office does not prepare opinions for private citizens, state agency employees, or employees of local agencies other than county prosecutors."