Watched the movie "Executive Action", questions for the experts....

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saturno_v

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This is a rather obscure 1973 movie despite some big name actors (for example Burt Lancaster)
It is about the conspiracy theory surrounding the JFK assassination, building a fictional story (supported by extensive research according to the movie director) about a secretive plot by powerful economic and political interests to get rid of Kennedy and, later on, getting rid of the "loose ends" and witnesses.
Basically it tells the story from the conspirators point of view, logistical preparation, etc...
The movie support the "triangulation of fire" theory, that is 3 shooters were used in the assasination, one from the Dallas County Municipal Records Building, the other from the "official" shoting spot, the Texas School Book Depository, and the last one from the infamous grassy knoll.
In the movie you can see two teams of 3 shooters each training for weeks in the desert shooting at a moving target and from height sometimes using a firetruck/utility repairman crane.
The difficulty of the shot is ackowledged as the need for very accurate rifles and the shooters finally tell to the head of the operation (Burt Lancaster) that it is imperative of the target vehicle to slow down to no more than 15 mph.
The men train with, as far as I can see, regular hunting bolt action rifles Remington, Winchester, etc.. chambered in what appear to be regular service/hunting rounds (30-06 and similar I suppose).
At some point in the movie, just few days before the action, the conspirators steal Oswald's rifle from the garage of his house, it will be used in the action with the other 2 shooters.
You can see the scene of the movie where one of the shooter disparage the Carcano lamenting the sticky bolt, trajectory drop, the offset scope.....in few words a piece of junk, "the rifle that would not hurt anyone".
The shooter says that he "will need much more practice with it", which is briefly seen in one sequence.
Now the questions are:


1) In such difficult shot, can the operator adapt so quickly to a total different rifle and round in few days?? Especially a rfle that is not exactly a tack driver, an old worn war horse.

2) Aren't repairmen and firetruck cranes too instable as shooting platform in order to train for such a shot??

3) Can you really proficiently practice from significant different positions compared to the actual shot?? The movie does not show an effort from the shooting team to reproduce the actual positions and distances during training.

4) In the sequence of the assasination, you can see the Carcano shooter from the book depository building but the other two (records building and grassy knoll) use different rifles....how the conspirator hope to match the bullets with a single rifle??

You can see the movie for free on here: (registration required)

http://veehd.com/video/4507892_Executive-Action
 
In short: yes. no yes, I don't know.

Training can overcome almost anything. A truely proficient marksman can make a good shot with any respectable rifle. As for shooting from a moving platform, today we train snipers to shoot from moving platforms like helos and boats. A statationary platfrom like a bucket truck or firetruck can work just fine. As for making calibers match, I assume they would just get rifles chambered in the same claiber Oswald has. Lastly, the Carcano is not as poor a rifle as mamy have suggested. If you look up the Warren Commission reports, the FBI states they were able get an average of 3" groups out to 200 yds, less than the Oswald shot.
 
First, while Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano had a poor telescopic sight badly mounted making his ability to hit with his second and third shots after missing with his first questionable, the angle and shot from the TBD was not hard. The killing shot to the head was made at 256ft from Oswald's position, that was his third shot. A shot on deflection from the grassy knoll would have been much more difficult. So, the second shot at @ 230 ft from Oswald was a 6.5 x52mm Carcano. Bullet recovered. The first shot, unrecovered. The third shot, the killing shot, unrecovered.

Any shot on deflection would have been hard for anyone. For guys stepping in at the last minute and not practicing the exact shot from the exact angle. Even for pros, a very very difficult task. Since I saw a Discovery ballistics review of the second shot, fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano from a cherry picker, there is evidence that it can be done effectively. But a deflection shot like that? I don't know.

In any event, while the Mannlicher-Carcano has been much maligned as a lightweight rifle compared to it's WWII competitors and firing an 1890s cartridge, the truth is that it is a good rifle and an excellent cartridge designed for long distance killing in Alpine warfare. The 160 gr RN is an excellent penetrator, as witnessed by the 'magic bullet".

In addition to how Oswald improved on each shot through a poorly attached scope after having failed to take the easiest shot, at the turn with an almost stationary vehicle only 80 ft from his position, the biggest question is what about the third shot?

Neither the first nor third bullets were ever found. The 'magic' second bullet was found in very good shape having penetrated the President, the seat in front of him, and the Governor. So it was clearly a penetrator. This is a very heavy jacketed bullet, mind you. Launched at a max velocity of 2000 fps, it was in the 1600 - 1700 fps range at arrival on target. How then did a bullet designed exactly like the second 'magic' bullet become insanely frangible on the third shot? 220 gr RN arriving at @ 1600 - 1700 fps, yet it disintegrates and blows a hole in the Presidents head like a varmint round. It should have been a through and through head shot, but it detonates. Very strange from a ballistics and performance perspective.

Read Stephen Hunter's new book The Third Bullet. Excellent read and a (fiction) great examination of the assassination from a ballistician's viewpoint.
 
Oswald's shots have been duplicated or bettered by several different groups.

Dr Martin Fackler of the US Army Wound Ballisitics Laboratory engaged in test involving the shooting of cadaver parts that duplicated what happened to JFK's head with a Carcano and the Governor of Texas's wrist. Also caused simular damage to the second round on the wrist shot "magic bullet" (which wasn't) on the test bullet.

One year at the SOldier of Fortune magazine convention folks were offered the chance to "compete" with Oswald's shots and folks matched or beat him.

There is no reason Oswald could not have been a lone shooter based on the evidence.


-kBob
 
Hokay, let's stick with the four questions.

#1, I'd say probably. We're talking experienced folks.
#2, I'd again say probably. Absent wind, they're fairly stable.
#3, Another probable, since it looks to me like a function of experience and training.
#4, It's a movie.
 
Not really. Heads frequently come to pieces when hit by rifle fire.

The head exploding isn't the strange part. It's a heavy jacket lowish terminal velocity bullet (the same as the second one that finished its journey through the President, seat and Governor with a slight core extrusion and mild bend) disintegrating on contact with the fragile skull.

That the bullet exploded seems odd, not the head. This would, in movieland, address question #4. A high velocity frangible bullet would be much harder to identify as "different" from a normal 220 gr RN Carcano. The autopsy found only traces of the third bullet. No way to match or rule out a ballistics match to the recovered bullet.
 
76 to 84 yard shots are not that difficult to make. Particularly when you have the high ground.
Anyone who practices enough, even with a crappy rifle, can become quite deadly with it.
I have seen guys around here who hit flying clay pigeon's with a Win M-94 30-30

Anyone read the book where the author had the theory that one of the Secret Service guys in front of Kennedy's car accidently shot him with a AR-15 round when he was startled but Oswald's shots. ??
 
#4, It's a movie.

Yes it is a movie that try to make the case for the 3 shooters theory (one of the most common and discussed conspiracy theory)...so I question how they square the fact that the potentially recovered bullets are coming from different rifles....
 
I have seen what a 30-06 rnd does at close range to the head from a suicide. The short of it was there was no head left.
 
The head exploding isn't the strange part. It's a heavy jacket lowish terminal velocity bullet (the same as the second one that finished its journey through the President, seat and Governor with a slight core extrusion and mild bend) disintegrating on contact with the fragile skull.

Bullets do weird and unpredictable things when they hit a body. Your body is not of uniform consistency like ballistics gel. Honestly, I don't think we can say that we can assume all of the rounds were even the same (maybe Oswald mixed and matched, altered some bullets, etc). Point being, we can't assume other rounds would behave the same as the 2nd shot, given our limited info.
 
Float Pilot;8694089)[I said:
Anyone read the book where the author had the theory that one of the Secret Service guys in front of Kennedy's car accidently shot him with a AR-15 round when he was startled but Oswald's shots. ??[/I]

Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Plausable.
 
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