Could the Carcano REALLY be the JFK assassination weapon?

[Sir Galahad]

Ok, this is, firstly, not meant as a "conspiracy theory" thread or a discussion of possible assassins' identities or motives unless it has a bearing on the weapon possibly used. The question is: Knowing what we know today, does it seem likely that the Carcano did, in fact, make the shots that killed JFK? We first should ask these questions:

1.) What is the accuracy one can expect from an off-the-rack Carcano?

2.) Does Carcano military surplus ammo lend or subtract to the accuracy of the Carcano?

3.) Could the action of the Carcano have made the shots at the speed it was said to have?

4.) Was there any evidence Oswald trained with the Carcano. If so, could any handicaps of the Carcano have been overcome? If not, why?

Ok, Carcano shooters, let's hear your verdicts! And, feel free to suggest a rifle of the era that seems more likely given the evidence at hand.

 

[Quartus]

You've asked irrelevant questions. As I have learned from many such discussions, the ONLY relevant fact is that Oswald learned marksmanship in the Marine Corp, and therefore any suggestion that he did NOT do ALL of the shooting is an insult to every man that has ever served in the Corp, fo to do so is to question the deadly marsmanship of every Marine who ever lived. (Yeah, even the 8 balls that barely made the lowest rung of qualification.)


So your questions are not only irrelevant, but insulting!




Carry on, boys.

 

[tasunkawitko]

not to be a smart-arse, but i think that he was questioning the rifle, not the shooter.

EVERYONE knows what a trained marine can do with an AMERICAN weapon, but how about one of those damned italian pieces of fluff?

 

[444]

I can vaguely answer question #1.
I occasionally shoot in a vintage bolt action rifle match. There are usually at least 20 shooters with everything from '03 Springfields, to M44s, to Mausers, to Enfields, to Schmit-Rubins. At least a few of the participants regularly shoot NRA Highpower, so the competition isn't easy. The last one I attended was won by a Carcano.




But the guy that won, wins almost all of them using various rifles. So, based on this experience, the right man with a Carcano can do some respectable shooting.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Anybody remember what Hathcock said about using a Carcano under those circumstances? It escapes me.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I was shooting my Hungarian M44 (my most accurate mil surp) in a lane next to guy with a carcano. He was outshooting me, and doing it at a fairly quick rate of fire. Could it have been done? Yes. Was it done?

 

[AZTOY]

The Italian government adopted the 6.5x52mm cartridge and the Mannlicher-Carcano M-91 bolt action rifle in 1891. This rifle and cartridge served the Italian military through two World Wars, victoriously in the First, and in a losing effort in the Second.

The M-91's used in WW II were, in the main, not very well made rifles; nor were they particularly accurate. Although the M-91 was always nominally a 6.5mm rifle, during the long years of production the bore and groove sizes of barrels varied considerably, which certainly did not help the rifle's reputation for accuracy. At least some (and perhaps all) M-91 TS Carbines were rifled with an unusual gain twist in their handy 21" barrel. By the end of the Second World War many of the M-91's had actions that were rather loose. In addition, the Mannlicher-Carcano action is not an easy one to adopt to a telescopic sight (although it can be done). For all of these reasons the M-91 is not the best military rifle to use as the basis of a sporter--in fact it is probably one of the worst.

The one real virtue of the M-91 is that it was a fast to operate. Perhaps this was partly because the action was not real tight, and partly due to the Mannlicher design. But for whatever reason, the bolt slid very easily and very fast in its recess. A buddy of mine owned an M-91 Carbine, and I remember it as being the fastest bolt action military rifle I ever cycled. Practically anyone, with a minimum of practice, could shoot a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle quickly.

A number of these rough rifles were brought home as "war trophies" by GI's after the conclusion of hostilities in 1945. Later on the Italian government declared the remaining M-91 service rifles surplus. A large number of them found their way to the United States, where they were sold to shooters seeking an inexpensive or knockabout rifle for deer hunting.

Unfortunately, one of these surplus Mannlicher-Carcano rifles was used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in 1963. The eventual result of that sad affair was the Gun Control Act of 1968, as if it were the M-91 rifle and all of the law abiding gun owners in the US who were to blame for the death of the President, rather than the man who actually fired the shots. Once again symbolism triumphed over substance in the US Congress. In any event, the whole unfortunate affair served to further blacken the reputation of the M-91 Mannlicher-Carcano.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x52.htm

 

[Sir Galahad]

Not to be macabre, but I wonder if anyone has tried re-creating this scene using a Carcano exact as Oswald used it, approximated ammo, and same distance at a moving target. The moving target could be done with a winch and pulley or something along that line. The hard part would be finding a way to approximate the height of Oswald in the building.

 

[cookhj]

i believe that there was a program on TV a few years back where they actually did testing with an italian carcano and tried to quasi-recreate the kennedy assassination. all i remember was catching a brief snippet of the show and i can't remember what all was said.

 

[Gary G23]

Myself and five other rifle shooters from my gun club went to the Depository Building when we were in Dallas for the Shot Show one year. When we got upstairs we all agreed that it would be a very easy shot for any moderately talented rifle shooter shooting about any rifle.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Yep.

There have been several re-inactments of the shooting that were successful. One thing many people aren't aware of is just how small Dealey Plaza really is. You can't get a good representation of it's actual size from the numerous photographs. It was a relatively easy shot.

 

[JohnBT]

Here's a drawing of the Plaza. JT

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/plazao.jpg

 

[Okiecruffler]

I was very surprised the first time I actually saw the site. I had always pictured some 3-400yrd range. When you actually see the place, it's hard to imagine a rifle that couldn't make those shots.

 

[JohnKSa]

I wonder if anyone has tried re-creating this scene using a Carcano exact as Oswald used it, approximated ammo, and same distance at a moving target.

Yes it has, and some have demonstrated that it is possible to make the shot. At least one of the persons who was able to make the shots, completely ignored the scope and used the iron sights. The scope mount design Oswald used allows that.

I agree with the folks who've been to Dealey. It's very small. Looking out the window next to the one Oswald used, my first thought was that it would be a surprisingly easy shot. Or, at least, MUCH easier than I had been led to believe by all the things I had read/heard about the shooting.

You can't get to the window he actually used, that small area is closed to the public. However, you can get to the one next to it which is only a few feet away.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

You can't get to the window he actually used, that small area is closed to the public. However, you can get to the one next to it which is only a few feet away.

The next best thing to being there, Dealey Plaza webcam .

EarthCam brings you the Dealey Plaza Cam - the ONLY LIVE view available in the world from the Sniper's Perch. EarthCam's live webcam gives you an exclusive view from the sixth floor window of the former Texas School Book Depository in Dallas, Texas.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Could he have used a Carcano for this?

Yes.

Are some Carcano's capable of fine accuracy?

Yes.

I was easily able to turn in sub 1.5" groups at 100 yards with one years ago (when my eyes were a LOT better).

Generally Carcanos I believe suffer from an image problem because they're not that good a design, the Italians were the jokes of the world in WW II, and the sights really aren't that good for fine shooting.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

we all agreed that it would be a very easy shot for any moderately talented rifle shooter shooting about any rifle.

Conspiracy Hat Firmly Attached...

But wouldn't you have taken the shots as the limo approached you as a frontal target and was ~25 yards closer, rather than as it drove away from you at an angle?

Conspiracy Hat Still Attached...it won't come off!

The best grafitti I've seen at the site was on the fence behind the "grassy knoll" where many think the shots came from. Amongst a bunch of names, conspiracy phrases and slogans, someone wrote: "[Their Name]...was not involved"

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

was oswald left handed? I know i can operate my enfield much faster than a right handed person can from a supported position (i never take my hand off the bolt)

 

[ReadyontheRight]

was oswald left handed?

Oswald was laft handed. If he used a right-handed bolt, had support and kept his cheek weld, he could fire that weapon very fast. Shooting a wrong-handed bolt action, you never have to take your finger off the trigger if the front of the weapon is supported.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

But wouldn't you have taken the shots as the limo approached you in a linear fashion and was ~25 yards closer, rather than as it drove away from you at an angle?

One minor problem with taking the shot at that angle. Oswald would have been visible across Dealy Plaza while standing there with the rifle. By waiting until after the turn, he was able to stay in the background and shoot from a lower angle.

 

[Jim Watson]

I read that Richard Davis set the scenario up as a side match at a Second Chance shoot several years ago. A limo mockup occupied by dummies was pulled down a track at the correct speed, angle, and distance from a platform the height of the Depository window. A Carcano with the same cheap scope as sold by Klein's was furnished.

The event was "won" within Oswalds' time and round count.

By a left-handed Marine.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

One minor problem with taking the shot at that angle. Oswald would have been visible across Dealy Plaza while standing there with the rifle. By waiting until after the turn, he was able to stay in the background and shoot from a lower angle.

Good point. After visiting the site, that detail always struck me as extremely odd.

 

[C.R.Sam]

As others have said.
Not that difficult.

Sam

 

[Gordon]

Oswald was a regular participant at the state run target range in the factory he worked at for a couple years in the Soviet Union! The Sov's had him down as a ' mediocre' shot, if you can believe them. When he expatriated from the peoples paradise back to US he was said to have practiced with the carcano, which had a 4x Technics (I think ) 3/4" scope mounted by the Importer for an extra $15 . I have a Mod 38 carbine that I mounted a 4x J series Weaver scope with the same vintage mount as Oswald used. It would put Norma ammo into "3 groups from it's gain twist barrel. It would explode watermellons from 100yds. we did this experiment in early 80's at a LEO bar-B-que. I still have gun on the wall of my den . That said the whole deal with Oswald and Ruby stinks like spook stuff to me.

 

[Okiecruffler]

Granted Conspiracies are much more fun.