We all want to protect life

[Jeff White]

Phil,
The truth finally comes out. What Kleck said must be right because it came from our side. How unscientific. You may be a good mathematician, but you know nothing about this subject. Kleck supports your personal worldview so he must be right.

You still fail to address the other points I made. Why is that? Could it be you can't argue with them? Or you don't know enough about them to argue with them?

Anonymous surveys and phone interviews. How scientific Let's make public policy based on speculation......

Just go believing anything you'd like. It's a free country. I will do the same.

When you are ready to address the other points I made feel free to start a new thread.

Jeff

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Excellent argument Phil. My hat is off to you.

Jim

 

[The Tourist]

I agree with many parts of the OP's treatise.

I believe that good people should have firearms. I also believe that their nature as "good" people also means that they help out in many other areas. They will help change a tire, or offer assistance in a church kitchen.

And they represent the spirit and the focus of the people we call The Framers.

Yikes, that is not our world in the 21th century.

In many aspects of society we no longer hold barn raisings, we don't know our neighbors, we no longer read classic literature or care. In fact, when I wrote e-mails, directions or agendas to white collar finance people I had to think up synonyms they would understand. If you referred to Willie and Hillary as the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern or our time you'd get blank stares.

While the urban legend of George Washington and the cherry tree might not be accurate, I've seen hidden camera tests where children now would pick up firearms when told not to.

Flatly, we're not the same society, and we don't wish to be. We have bastardized the concept of freedom to mean "my freedom at any cost."

The most tragic example of this was a cold winter afternoon when Madison got hit with 17 inches of snow. I own an F-150, so my wife and I still went out for errands. We stopped at our favorite restraurant for lunch. We were suprised to find the entire restaurant filled with Amish families. They were in town for a farm expo, and their hotel was across the road.

As we ate, an employee attempted to leave and was immediated hung up on snow. Being retired, I always wear road clothes. As I got up to aid the employee, I whispered to my wife, "Two dozen teenagers and the old biker goes out to push."

I no sooner threw my shoulder into the rear bumper when every boy came out to help. My wife later related that an Amish elder made a terse comment.

This is our society, like it or not. And all of those firearms.

I no longer believe that we as a people hold to the same ideals as out Founders. As a boy I heard my army veteran relatives speak of Japan and Korea with the epithet, "To them, life is cheap."

Now I see it here.

 

[JohnL2]

The Tourist brings up some good points.
I have many complaints about our education system. The classics just don't seem to be emphasized anymore. Even if you touch on the subjects they usually are seriously watered down. The books I've read that contained The Framers original thoughts convey the fact that those men were firmly educated in the classics; history etc.. They were brilliant debaters. Well aware of the dangers of the mob mentality of the people; and also the dangers of an aristocracy and nobility. As much as we complain about our government, it is set up to best compensate for the failings of being human.
I can not stand the whole less government or more government debate. It is ridiculous. I believe people just want a government that works. All that means is putting the right people in charge.
I don't share his opinion that the youth of today are all rotten pampered brats. Just be careful of the company you keep.
As for "To them, life is cheap.", people all over the world leave their homeland for America to breathe free from the fetidness of whatever stifling social structure that they may have lived under in the Old World.

 

[maestro pistolero]

As we ate, an employee attempted to leave and was immediated hung up on snow. Being retired, I always wear road clothes. As I got up to aid the employee, I whispered to my wife, "Two dozen teenagers and the old biker goes out to push."

I no sooner threw my shoulder into the rear bumper when every boy came out to help. My wife later related that an Amish elder made a terse comment.

The terse comment by the elder was in response to your statement, or to the boys?

Either way, the tourist's story about the Amish boys and the stuck driver is example of hope, not despair to me. The teenagers had their collective heads up their bums at first, (big surprise, they're teenagers) but they showed up to help in the end.

 

[Sam]

The real deal is that trust doesn't enter into the equation of RKBA.
So long as I am adequately armed, I have no need to trust you do I?

Sam

 

[maestro pistolero]

I disagree with the original premise that "we all just want to preserve life."

And I refuse to hold hands and sing while my rights are being attacked.

Someone had to take the 'us vs them' approach and I guess I am as good a candidate as anyone else. I certainly am not afraid to expose myself to the flame.

See, behind every anti is the argument that life is not worth defending.

Don't mistake my kindness for weakness, if you threaten my life or the life of an innocent in my presence, you will learn the difference.

The real deal is that trust doesn't enter into the equation of RKBA.
So long as I am adequately armed, I have no need to trust you do I?

Both of these posts seem to me a rather nihilistic view of human existence, don't you think? Some other responses I see this thread leave me scratching my head as well.

What I am saying is, if we are only angry and confrontational, and never attempt to reassure those whose fear won't let them see the light, we are missing an opportunity to forward our cause.

I am of the don't give-an-inch crowd, as well, where 2A rights are concerned. I happen to believe our zero tolerance for infringement can co-exist with a little measure of acknowledgment to the other side, and a little reassurance that, yes, we are going to keep and bear (own, store, and carry) weapons, you ARE going to have to accept it, AND everything IS going to be OK.

 

[The Tourist]

The terse comment by the elder was in response to your statement, or to the boys?

The elder had not heard me. In fact he didn't even know I was going out until I grabbed my jacket.

It's is my wife's report he shamed them.

 

[Old Guy]

Show by Example

It would be nice to think that all those young people would have jumped up to help by themselves? That is not the nature of the beast, but the fact that they responded to a command/comment by a person of authority in their midst is very encouraging to this old guy, one who has always helped push.

 

[bobbarker]

It's kind of out there to make a conjecture about Society based on the actions at that restaurant, with so few facts. Maybe those kids didn't notice the guy get stuck? I think there are some serious problems with the youth of America today, but I don't see what that has to do with RTKBA.

 

[maestro pistolero]

It's kind of out there to make a conjecture about Society based on the actions at that restaurant, with so few facts. Maybe those kids didn't notice the guy get stuck? I think there are some serious problems with the youth of America today, but I don't see what that has to do with RTKBA.

If not taken in the context of the entire thread, I suppose one might find it a little OT, but I saw it as being used as just an example of societal trends, i.e. trust and goodwill (or lack thereof) toward our fellow man.

How about commenting on the thread itself? The subject is: Concerns and motivations that are mutual to both sides, and common ground that might be emphasized in the dialog and debate with our opponents as they relate to gun rights.

 

[The Tourist]

Maestro, I'm not sure we all want to protect life, at least I have never considered it a goal.

For example, there are many religions and sects that have in their fabric a "convert or cleanse" style of expansion for the faith. You don't have to proffer the goal of contemporary jihads, simply study the history of Jesuits in central and South America.

(If you don't like reading, just get the Roberst DeNiro movie.)

Now let's suppose I was a native inhabitant of that region in that time. I would be very dedciated to protect life. I would simply immediately kill every Jesuit who disembarked from a ship.

Then, there is the idea of hugging a tree and all singing Kumbaya. The moment someone is in charge of picking the tree you have a hierarchy. One of the singers is an old Klingon or biker and he doesn't like the tree...

How does one become a patriot of the Colonial forces in our Revolutionary War. Those men wanted to protect life--they even put it in writing.

And then they shot every Brit and Hessian and hanged all of the Tories.

I'm protecting life right now.

 

[SoCalShooter]

The safety record of those who pass the training and background checks required in "shall-issue" concealed-carry States equals or exceeds that of active duty law enforcement.

Not to be argumentative but do you have any stats or links that back that up?

 

[Old Guy]

The safety record of those who pass the training and background checks required in "shall-issue" concealed-carry States equals or exceeds that of active duty law enforcement.

You can pick on the poor cops all the time if it is what you want to do, trained a bunch of them, never been one, BUT the Police are working every shift with the other side being the bad guys!

So there record in any ones view has to be done in real time. They just had to end up in more conflicts, kind of hard to not score high on the unsafe activity scale.

One view I can take, is from personal experience, working on the door of clubs as a door man, as a twenty five year of age I could guarantee a fight, at least one, every Friday night! Sometimes these were team events, multiples on multiples, sometimes not, both times I was stabbed it was one on one.

In talking to work mates (full time job was not bouncing) and Buddy's at the gun club, no one had ever been in a fight since grade School, not one ever!

It was not something you did in your twenty's. And the ones who delivered the excitement on those nights, were hooligans, and most gave as good as they got! They had lot's of practice.

Now talk to the young Copper in an inner City, they have been in lots of fights, a lot more than the private citizens, most likely a better safety record by dint of the battles they had been in, with gun in holster.

Nearly 1-30! Have to hit the sheets, hope this post makes some sense!

 

[maestro pistolero]

Not to be argumentative but do you have any stats or links that back that up?

Y

ou can pick on the poor cops all the time if it is what you want to do, trained a bunch of them, never been one, BUT the Police are working every shift with the other side being the bad guys!

So there record in any ones view has to be done in real time. They just had to end up in more conflicts, kind of hard to not score high on the unsafe activity scale.

Good Lord fellas, do you read the whole thread before you post? Ask and answered to the best of my ability.