I think you could make the arguement that the AR15 is a platform. With the thousands of easy modifications that can be made to it, it really is a foundation for many things. I can switch from .223 to .458 in seconds. Change barrel lenghts, go from a tactical to a sniper set up in quick order. I don't know that most "guns" can do that, but the AR15 is a different animal. I agree with your comments however, they are terms that seem to be getting kicked around a lot, without merit.
Weapon System?
- Thread starter Robert101
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Some don't like to be left out of the conversation and insist on [strike] dumbing things down [/strike] keeping it simple.
"Oh, them guys is tryin' to look real smart and make like their gun is something special better."
Aside from the Joe Bubba reverse elitism, the AR15 can be considered a weapons platform because of the number of different guns that have be typed and given distinct nomenclatures by DOD. They aren't all "M16" for a reason. Each type has it's distinct role, from a 10" suppressed carbine, thru the M4 and SOPMOD equipment, the SDM midrange sniper, the issue A2's and, now, A4's, plus variations that include alternate calibers. There's over a dozen.
Darn few piston guns have. Usually, they're so inflexible in design they don't make the transistion and can't be much different. Except the AK, which has worked out to be a platform or system, too. So has Glock.
It's either become a weapon system now, or die on the vine.
"Oh, them guys is tryin' to look real smart and make like their gun is something special better."
Aside from the Joe Bubba reverse elitism, the AR15 can be considered a weapons platform because of the number of different guns that have be typed and given distinct nomenclatures by DOD. They aren't all "M16" for a reason. Each type has it's distinct role, from a 10" suppressed carbine, thru the M4 and SOPMOD equipment, the SDM midrange sniper, the issue A2's and, now, A4's, plus variations that include alternate calibers. There's over a dozen.
Darn few piston guns have. Usually, they're so inflexible in design they don't make the transistion and can't be much different. Except the AK, which has worked out to be a platform or system, too. So has Glock.
It's either become a weapon system now, or die on the vine.
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Then they would probably want to ask you if you have a dictionary so you can learn any of the other 50 or so accepted definitions of the verb "to run" and not look so uneducated.
If someone said he or she runs a business, would you make yourself look silly by asking why he or she was running?
fallout mike
Member
One example, i was at a gun show browsing recently. At one table im looking and the guy has a few AR's, he then ask me "what are you running now"? We had not had any communication until that point. I guess my friends and I are the only ones that find that funny. All I say is I think this is funny and I have to defend my statement that did not single anybody and is just something that makes me laugh? Some people need to take their midol I believe.
"Weapons System" and "Weapons Platform" define a whole new realm of firearms design with the M16 rifles at the head of the pack.
"Modular Weapon System" is another term that isn't as broad and denotes exactly what is meant by these million dollar terms.
It isn't mall ninja unless tie wearing engineers hang out in malls sucking diet soda through a plastic straw,,,
"Modular Weapon System" is another term that isn't as broad and denotes exactly what is meant by these million dollar terms.
It isn't mall ninja unless tie wearing engineers hang out in malls sucking diet soda through a plastic straw,,,
JohnM
Member
Huh? :banghead:
Come out here and ask some guy what kind of "weapon system" that rifle is he has hanging in the back window of his pick-up.
That kind of bureaucratic gibberish belongs in the committee rooms of DC where they don't have a clue how to speak or write anything down that doesn't take a building full of lawyers to interpret.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
He probably just made the assumption that you were a competitive shooter or participated in regular training & practice. For someone like that, the firearm is a tool that helps them perfect a skill and accomplish a goal -- not just an object to be possessed.
It's the same thing as asking someone, "what car are you driving these days?" They may own a pickup, motorcycle, sedan, a street rod, and two economy cars. But you're asking what they're concentrating their time in/on. What have they found to accomplish their goals efficiently and reliably.
At a gun show, I would not ask a tweedy-looking fellow squinting at a new-in-box S&W Registered Magnum through a jeweler's loupe, "Hey, what revolver are you running now?" The question doesn't apply to his (perceived) interests and habits.
But someone at the next table comparing Aimpoints and ACOGS on an AR-15 with half the finish worn off probably "runs" his system pretty hard.
Or the guy in the USPSA or IDPA match t-shirt who's buying another two cases of ammo, like he does every month.
The question might even apply to the Alaskan or Rocky Mountain hunting guide trying to decide between a light .375 and a heavier .458 as his back-up gun for Grizzly hunts. Guys/gals for whom ownership of the weapon is not the destination, but a means to an end.
I don't know why he assumed you fit into that role. Maybe he was just trying to flatter you.
fallout mike
Member
Watch out john. You are about to get piled on.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, thinking about this a little more, this is probably it. Most likely, he was that rarity at gun shows/shops -- the good salesman.
He knows that most of the marks walking by or stopping to oogle his wares are buying a gun to shoot twice and then lean in the closest corner as a dust magnet. But a sale is a sale and he knows as well that guys (at least) are usually buying "the sizzle, not the steak": the fantasy of mastery that often attends ownership of an object.
So, he'll play along a bit and flatter the buyer by treating him as though he might just be mistaken for a real serious dude. Akin to the car salesman pretending to assume that the pudgy middle-aged store clerk drooling over the new Corvette surely must be an experienced SCCA driver looking for his next street & track racer. ("Hey, you'll probably want a new helmet and nomex suit to match that paint, won't you? When's your next track day? ...")
So when a couple of average-looking guys walk up to his table, if he's smart he won't go overboard and pretend he thinks they're recon Marines, but he can throw in a little subtle fluffery ... "I see you're looking at a new competition rifle ... (Pssst, didn't I see you standing next to Taran Butler at the last 3-gun Nationals? No?) ... what are you running currently?"
Just good salesmanship, and generally harmless ... except to your wallet!
For me it just seems that shooters are trying to bring decoration to what I consider simple field carried and individually used firearms. I just can't imagine by uncle or grandfather in WWII telling a combat soldier to shoulder that weapon system and fire. It would be more in terms of pick up that rifle and get in the fight.
Today's rifles are more modular and readily accommodating of accessories than the M1 Garand, but to me it is the same principle - it is a gun, rifle, or weapon for sure. Is it a weapon system, well I'm not ready to get so modern and hip as to that terminology.
I guess if I were Mr. Barrett or one of the other modern firearm manufacturers I would be more incline to verbally "decorate" my product for marketing purposes. I really think that is where most of this nomenclature is rooted.
Today's rifles are more modular and readily accommodating of accessories than the M1 Garand, but to me it is the same principle - it is a gun, rifle, or weapon for sure. Is it a weapon system, well I'm not ready to get so modern and hip as to that terminology.
I guess if I were Mr. Barrett or one of the other modern firearm manufacturers I would be more incline to verbally "decorate" my product for marketing purposes. I really think that is where most of this nomenclature is rooted.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Is that where it is rooted I don't think so. But it may be how it is developing.
For an individual to say, "pick up your weapons system and shoot!" would be absurd. That's awkwardly and poorly using the term.
For a manufacturer who's selling a package of gun, rifle, bipod, mags, drag-bag, scope, BUIS, various stock options, and/or any combination of those things, "weapon system" describes well the whole package.
For an instructor or demonstrator or commentator to say, "I'm going to show you the manual-of-arms for the M4 weapon system," makes perfect sense as he's presenting information on how a family of related firearms work and how they work together with their common support accessories.
The term can be used pretentiously, but there's nothing wrong with it in the right context.
For an individual to say, "pick up your weapons system and shoot!" would be absurd. That's awkwardly and poorly using the term.
For a manufacturer who's selling a package of gun, rifle, bipod, mags, drag-bag, scope, BUIS, various stock options, and/or any combination of those things, "weapon system" describes well the whole package.
For an instructor or demonstrator or commentator to say, "I'm going to show you the manual-of-arms for the M4 weapon system," makes perfect sense as he's presenting information on how a family of related firearms work and how they work together with their common support accessories.
The term can be used pretentiously, but there's nothing wrong with it in the right context.
fallout mike
Member
When I go to gun shows I dont talk to the sellers or pick up any guns unless im very interested in buying. So sam , you may be right. I may have given off a vibe that I was a serious shooter with something
particular in mind. I dont consider myself a "serious" shooter but I am an avid shooter. And im not making fun its just funny to me.
particular in mind. I dont consider myself a "serious" shooter but I am an avid shooter. And im not making fun its just funny to me.
I'll pick up on an opposite view - why spout off "What are you running?" if not to separate the goats from the sheep? Some people do use phrases to discern the other guys experience level and knowledge.
Mea Culpa, I do it at work, somebody comes in trying to diagnose an electrical fault with a pliers and screwdriver approach. If I mention checking the sensors with a VOM to determine which might be at fault, and see their eyes glaze over, it leads me to think the vehicle isn't likely to get fixed right the first part thrown at it. And Federal Law says electrical parts are non returnable if installed, which is enforced by my store manager.
We like to associate with people of like minds, which includes ethics and education. Nothing wrong with laughing at "running," no doubt the other guy is, too. Since the more experienced users, veterans, and decision makers DO use certain phrases, anyone can laugh all they want, but running in those circles using their weapons platforms, it's part and parcel of the environment.
What's interesting is how it might contribute to polarization. Good grief, just shoot the darn thing accurately, and all that falls by the wayside.
Mea Culpa, I do it at work, somebody comes in trying to diagnose an electrical fault with a pliers and screwdriver approach. If I mention checking the sensors with a VOM to determine which might be at fault, and see their eyes glaze over, it leads me to think the vehicle isn't likely to get fixed right the first part thrown at it. And Federal Law says electrical parts are non returnable if installed, which is enforced by my store manager.
We like to associate with people of like minds, which includes ethics and education. Nothing wrong with laughing at "running," no doubt the other guy is, too. Since the more experienced users, veterans, and decision makers DO use certain phrases, anyone can laugh all they want, but running in those circles using their weapons platforms, it's part and parcel of the environment.
What's interesting is how it might contribute to polarization. Good grief, just shoot the darn thing accurately, and all that falls by the wayside.
henschman
Member
I don't use the term "weapons system"... but it seems like I mostly hear military folks using it. I figure it is just part of their lingo, and it seems like they just use it interchangeably with "gun" or "weapon;" but I do use the word "platform," for instance when I am referring to all M-14 variants of all different makes, designations, and configurations, I might call it the "M-14 platform." That is a situation in which it would be inaccurate to call them "M1As," because that only refers to one specific manufacturer (Springfield Inc.); and it would be inaccurate to call it the "M-14" because that is not the actual model name of some of them, and folks might think that I am referring just to the military production ones; so to be concise and accurate I just call it the "M-14 platform." The same would go for any type of firearm pattern for which there are a lot of different manufacturers, model designations, and variants.
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