Weapon transition during an attack. What would you do?

[scaatylobo]

Sidhester

It was already stated,but to reiterate.

IF you CCW and do so as you know you should = 24/7.

Then you should already know and follow the precepts set forth by Col. Cooper many moons ago.

You are either in "condition" yellow or orange when in public = or your kidding yourself.

That being the case,even thios old man cannot be approached in public without enough awareness to take action PRIOR to being struck down by a bg.

I am not using Coopers rules as a gospel,but some form of them is REQUIRED if your serious about CCW.

That being the case,your OP is not concievable to me.

 

[uspJ]

Too many constraints, poor tactics among them.

My keys are in my hand while walking, not my pocket. How else am I supposed to have my car unlocked when I get there, so I don't fumble around, as you would have me do?

My knife is on my strong side, with my gun. In your scenario, I'm punching or kicking for his groin, unless/until I can draw my gun and shoot.

I'm sorry the scenario isn't to your liking. Hopefully if your ever in a violent encounter it will be just the way you want it to be.

I generally carry my keys in hand as well. I also check over both shoulders before I put the keys to the door. Not all people do either. I had the average person in mind when I made the scenario.

I carry a knife on both sides of my body because I can't know how an attack will occur. I'd rather be prepared the best I can than hope that the cards play into my favor.

He may not be aware that you just stabbed or slashed him – only that you struck him – and he may not react as you expected.

Very true Shawn, and as smince pointed out that can apply to a gun as well as any other weapon once adrenaline is in the mix. What would you do in the situation.

Well if the guy has any size or strength to him, pounding on my head with a chunk of steel will likely take me out of the fight and make the whole scenario pointless. In your scenario, my vision won't be blurred, it will be useless for the few seconds that the attack lasts. I'd be better served in that scenario to keep cutting on the guy and stay close (attempting to keep his muzzle pointed elsewhere) until I feel him drop.

You would be surprised the amount of trauma someone can take and stay in the fight. I've seen guys hit in the head with combo locks tied to the end of belts and still stay in the fight despite being split open and covered in their own blood.

 

[uspJ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was already stated,but to reiterate.

IF you CCW and do so as you know you should = 24/7.

Then you should already know and follow the precepts set forth by Col. Cooper many moons ago.

You are either in "condition" yellow or orange when in public = or your kidding yourself.

That being the case,even thios old man cannot be approached in public without enough awareness to take action PRIOR to being struck down by a bg.

I am not using Coopers rules as a gospel,but some form of them is REQUIRED if your serious about CCW.

That being the case,your OP is not concievable to me.

Glad to see you've never been surprised or distracted in pubic.

 

[highorder]

All I meant was I don't have my keys in my pocket, for this very reason.

I had the average person in mind when I made the scenario.

This forum is lacking in "average people.

 

[uspJ]

Agreed on both count Highorder

 

[smince]

This forum is lacking in "average people.

You would think so. But then I see way too many posts like this:

give him the wallet and keys. he's won this one

 

[JohnBiltz]

A lot of unknown variables. How are we dressed? This matters in a knife fight. A knife is a lot more useful going for the tendons of the arm if he is wearing a T-shirt rather than a heavy coat. Assuming he is not wearing something heavy I think you either stay in contact with the knife or break contact. I don't see taking a step back and attempting a draw on a guy at that distance who already is in combat mode. Breaking contact has advantages, you should have slowed him with the stab to the leg. You can draw at that point arming yourself with a better weapon. The other thing is most people are not carrying a fighting knife. Its probably something with about 3 inches of blade not optimized for fighting so you are not going to be able to end anything quick and the tendons in the arm probably is the best target you have. Also, that wound to your forehead is going to cripple you in a close in fight, there are reasons a boxer has a good cut man in the corner. Staying with the knife is going to be brutal, ugly and probably come down to who is the toughest unless you are a martial artist and chances are you get hurt too. Not really how you want to do things. I think I'd make a pass at getting a cut on the arm and then try to break contact arming myself as I did and utilizing cover if it did not work. I don't think there is a correct answer here.

 

[scaatylobo]

" Glad to see you've never been surprised or distracted in pubic "

I have NEVER been surprised in PUBIC !!,hope the same for you too as it can kill an election = LOL.

But as I do follow a version of Coopers rules,no I have never been surprised in PUBLIC.

And since I spent a 'few' years actually walking a beat - that could have happend on many a shift [ worked all three].

I have many friends that CCW and they are not LEO,and we are in NYS and they too have never been surprised in public.

I can name a few reasons for the caution and the training,but the facts are just that.

If you CCW and can be "surprised" at anytime,then dont bother to carry as you will just have it taken by that bg.

 

[smince]

OK, you've never been 'surprised'

How about 'distracted', even for just a moment?

 

[167]

Quote:

How close is cover? Where is it located relative to my location and orientation (i.e. behind me, etc.)?

In the OP scenario, this would be waaaaay down the list.

Not necessarily, it depends on how close it is. If I can take one or two steps and put a barrier capable of stopping small handgun bullets between me and the attacker it makes all the difference in the world. The over-riding goal here is not to get shot right? So if I can keep from getting shot by taking a couple steps I think that will work better than trying to fight him to the ground with a knife or pumping him full of bullets from a handgun.

Of course if the cover is more than a few steps away, or if I am not oriented in a way to make movement to that cover quick and easy, then yes, it is way down the list.

 

[uspJ]

167

I set the scene in a crowded parking lot so that cover/concealment were close by. Even your own car could be used as long as your putting it between you and the bg. Often (especially in the holiday season) I have seen parking lots almost filled to capacity. I thought this was a good setting since it is a place filled with people on their way in and out of stores with cash and merchandise. People are usually distracted and in a rush so they are not as alert as they should be. Also the vehicles parked side by side makes a good spot for someone to pop out of. I have mistaken parking spots for being empty when they just had a small car parked in them so the idea of a bg being able to find concealment between two cars is not out of the realm of possibility.

scaatylobo

Glad to hear that neither you nor your pubic have ever been surprised in public

 

[scaatylobo]

I am getting a good laugh from this thread.

I was ALWAYS under the impression that if you drop your guard in public you are either a sheeple - or a fool.

I was born and lived in NYC for 25 years and then became an LEO with a total of 43 years of martial arts so far [ too old now to get more ].

So if you have read Col.Coopers color code or attended any training for a protracted time ,then you would have an understanding that you are NEVER distracted or allow any into that 'space' we all know as personal.

Yes,it has been attempted and NO they didnt get there.

btw - a parking lot is PRIME location for an attack with all the vehicles to hide behind,so my attention is greater under those circumstances.

I do not fear that which I can handle so if prepared,fear is not a thought.

As I have recently explained to non CCW people = I dont fear or even give thought to that for which I am prepared.

 

[thunder173]

Been following along here, and reading the various responses.

First,..in that I am on my knees being pistol whipped,..giving up and giving in to the BG ceased to be an option. He has already made his intentions clear.

Second,...In that the knife is already in my hand, and my gun is not,....regardless of why,....coupled with the facts that I have already successfully injured the bg with it,..and we are already at bad breath distance,...

I personally would choose to continue to press the attack with the knife, while attempting to focus on his gun hand or arm,....and do so as rapidly and as violently as I could,....using the old axiom of cutting long,..deep,..and continuously,...until the bad guy no longer has control of his weapon, attempting to either neutralize the bg with my knife,...or at least get his weapon out of the fight.

If I succeed in getting HIS weapon is out of the fight,...now MY options change,..and I can react accordingly,...as the whole set of dynamics of the fight change.

Somebody said it above,..it's gonna be bloody and it's gonna be brutal,..and I might get hurt. Yes indeed,..that is true. But it is at that stage already. I'd rather fight with the weapon in my hand,..up close,..than risk disengaging, and affording the bad guy an opportunity to use his gun.

This is just my 2 cents worth,..... But I am a 60 year old "Old Soldier",...I am too old, broken, and tired to run,..and too bull headed to give up.

Ymmv......Each must choose their own destiny,.....

 

[smince]

I am getting a good laugh from this thread.

I was ALWAYS under the impression that if you drop your guard in public you are either a sheeple - or a fool.

I was born and lived in NYC for 25 years and then became an LEO with a total of 43 years of martial arts so far [ too old now to get more ].

So if you have read Col.Coopers color code or attended any training for a protracted time ,then you would have an understanding that you are NEVER distracted or allow any into that 'space' we all know as personal.

Yes,it has been attempted and NO they didnt get there.

btw - a parking lot is PRIME location for an attack with all the vehicles to hide behind,so my attention is greater under those circumstances.

I do not fear that which I can handle so if prepared,fear is not a thought.

As I have recently explained to non CCW people = I dont fear or even give thought to that for which I am prepared.

Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce to you:

SUPERMAN

Whatever

 

[Safjac]

Simple. Grab his gun hand and wait for him to bleed out. It won't take all that long. If I'd stabbed him, I also ripped the blade out sideways. And I can shave with my knife.

 

[scaatylobo]

yo Smince

I am not superanything,but this last post of yours leads me to believe this is a joke and you take real S/D as a laugh.

That makes you "Superfool" in my not so humble opinion.

I came here to learn and express my beliefs and what I have learned,not have shots taken at me for being honest.

I am totally serious as to what I have learned and taught,if that is a joke to you = PLEASE keep it to yourself.

 

[smince]

You can't expect anyone to believe you've never dropped your guard on the street even for a second.

Never put your head down loading groceries? Never paid more attention to your wife or kids than what is going on around you?

You can't keep anyone out of your 'personal space' either unless you measure it in inches.

You may have yourself convinced, but reality is what it is and NO ONE walks around in yellow or orange 24/7/365.

Good day.

 

[chieftain]

RE: The OP's question:

Option 1, press home your own attack and finish the fight. If you are succeeding, don't stop being successful, in the hope and possiblility, that the time you give the Bad guy to regroup while you are concentrating on choosing and selecting a new weapon and means of attack, and hope your new selection will allow you to continue to succeed.

As to those who talk about being alert "ALL THE TIME". There are only two types of people, those that know that no human being can be alert all the time, and those who lie about it.

Life happens. Accept it and adapt, do not try to ignore it. Because as Ayn Rand states:

“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality”

Good luck.

Fred

 

[Erik]

From the violent tangle, to effectively use a weapon two things are necessary: (1) controlling the opponents limb nearest the weapon to prevent fouling and (2) obtaining position to draw and use the weapon . In a dynamic struggle, that's easier said than done.

Note, distance as in separation from the opponent is not part of the equation. Because, what if you cannot?

Once a weapon is accessed and in use, why transition from it? The answer is distance. That has not been achieved per the scenario, thus I advise driving on with the knife. Preferably in a rapid, sewing machine manner, but that beyond the scope of the thread and these forums.

 

[Bovice]

It's too impractical in that setting to take time to switch weapons. Use the knife.

 

[uspJ]

Thanks for the responses guys. I was just trying to get some feedback on the question: Is it better to transition to a different weapon that may have better stopping power once allready in the midst of an attack or continue to use the one allready in hand?

I wasn't looking to have the thread pulled off topic about lectures of SA that weren't needed for the discussion at hand. Scaatylobo your entitled to your opinion but you have yet to offer any advice to the op, other than SA and it was rather unrealistic at that. I'm sure with all your experience you could humor me and give me your insight on how you would handle yourself in the situation or one similar to it.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I think a lot of you are neglecting the part in the original post where you have a gash on your forehead that is beginning to blur your vision. Its time to break contact, you don't win many fights where you can't see anymore, nor are you in a position to take time to keep wiping the blood from your eyes.

 

[Safjac]

This is becoming a little too serious for "merely a hypothetical" situation. Even the dissenters had valid arguments.

If I look at this deal from the perspective of the attacker, I would like to note: He begins to beat the snot out of you with a handgun. Then he gets stabbed in the leg...

The defender is already blurry-eyed. If the defender breaks close contact with the attacker, he will give the attacker opportunity for first fire. Doesn't take a hell of a lot to figure that one out.

I have no idea if there is a correct answer built into this scenario. Maybe just scream real loudly, and let the mall-ninjas rescue you.

 

[Shadow 7D]

In this situation, at this range,

A KNIFE is as deadly or MORE DEADLY than a gun

you apply the same rules as a SD shooting, you press the attack until the threat is stopped, whether dead, or cause he is missing a hand.

personally (for all you hunters) the attacker would receive an abdominal J-cut and then I would focus on the arm pit region, if you don't hit a lung, a nerve or blood vessel, you have hit a lung nerve or a blood vessel. Don't think the cops will have a hard time finding a guy with a dead arm and guts hanging out.

 

[scaatylobo]

Thought I was being plain

Sorry,but my 'advise' was to get the training to AVOID that scenerio ever happening.
If you would stop and READ some of the training that is readily available = instead of following a game of name calling !.
I am a bit surprised at the total lack of what most must have for training as I follow this thread.
And I am really amused at the poster that "knows" that I CANNOT possibly be in condition yellow 24/7 [ when he seems to have NO idea what that is ].
I am sure there are at least one other here that understands the idealogy of being armed and takes it serious enough to have taken the training ?.
And if any have been LEO instructors or LEO's in busy locations = they too have that knowledge.
So do many that were in real combat - just just remf's.
I wont bother you 'real' men with trivia about combat = you already know all you need to so do not have the ability to learn = your glass is full !.