The Garage- what would you do?

[mercop]

You are asked by a friend of family member to take them to the hospital for outpatient surgery on their leg. Whey you leave they will be on crutches.

As you pull into the parking garage of course it is full and you are forced to park on the second to last level. You exit your car making sure to put the parking ticket in your pocket before taking the elevator down to ground level. As you and your friend exit the garage a disheveled man walks up with his hands in his pocket and begins to approach you. In reaction you put your hand up and say “stay back”. He says he just wants a dollar. You tell him no and he walks away shaking his head and you hear him mutter “*******.”

Your friend's surgery takes longer than expected and when you are done it is dark out. You assist your friend now on crutches out the door and across the street onto the elevator. The once full parking lot is now pretty empty.

You get to your car and open the passenger side door for your friend and start helping him swing his legs in. You hear footsteps behind you and turn around to see the same man from the morning coming around the back of an SUV parked next to you. He has something in his hand. He is only feet away; you can’t back up since your friend in sitting in the car right behind you. There is no time to deploy you gun/knife so you lunge forward and close the few feet of distance and then you feel a burning sensation, he has sprayed you with OC. You now have both of your hands on him….but you cannot open your eyes. What do you do?

 

[theken206]

why cant I open my eyes its just pepper spray?? I filled up a room and ran through it a couple of times as a kid. Got a facefull of it as a young teen by someone who thought it would be a fight stopper. I assure you it wasnt.

But uhhh to answer the question I guess I would go for a single leg takedown and try and slam the guy into side conrtoll{I would just have to assume my ground game is better than some random bum} or just dump him hard and step back to clear my vision.

 

[mercop]

What is it that you would accomplish by going to the ground with him? What would this do to protect you against a secondary weapon?

I am sure that running through a room full of OC and a blast from some BS Sporting Good Store OC is not the same as catching a blast from some of the hot stuff.

 

[jeepmor]

A blow of a some sort to put some hurt back on him and create distance for a draw. I suspect I'm in a parking garage between two cars and I can't leave my friend, cornered. I don't figure I'll shoot a guy for blasting me with pepper spray. Fat lip, black eye, bloody nose in my defensive instinct, I hope, but not a Gunshot wound unless he keeps pressing the issue trying to rob us or produces a weapon beyond the seasoning packet. If I can't see well, a draw and announcement of a gun should keep the distance. When you're that close, that's a big target even it your aiming through watery eyes and shadows. We're still between cars, if the figure keeps pressing forward physically, he has been provided adequate warning of consequences.

I suspect I can tell the difference from a body running away from me or closing in on me, even with pepper spray in my eyes.

 

[theken206]

"What is it that you would accomplish by going to the ground with him? What would this do to protect you against a secondary weapon?"

for one hopefully the slam in itself would render said attacker out of it.Not many men get there head bounced off the ground and continue what they were doing.

it might allow me to employ a weapon of my own from a more dominant position.


and like I said maybe just dump the guy nice and hard, and then take a step back to run/draw a weapon/clear my vision/apply the boots to him.

 

[Mike J]

depending on where my hands were I'd go for either his adams apple, his groin or an eye gouge-the cheaper the shot the better. If I were lucky enough to gain an advantage with any of that I'd try to just keep beating on him till I felt he were no longer capable of being a threat. tough start though already at a big disadvantage.

 

[target1911]

Pull a can of OC o a LEO and see what ya get. Tha is grounds for gettin shot. OC can (not always) take you out of the fight or atleast give you a huge disatvantage. If I couldnt draw and shoot, I would take hin to the ground and choke the living #**$& out of him. ****IF YOU CANT BREATH YOU CANT FIGHT***
Use a choke hold or grap the adams apple and crush it. It is VERY effective.

 

[mercop]

If you think that you would be able to take a blast of OC in the face and respond by drawing a pistol and engaging a target you really should try it with an airsoft to see how it works out.

 

[Guncrazy45]

I'm not sure why I wouldn't have time to draw my Ka-Bar TDI, but if that were the case, I'd probably go for head butts and eye gouges and hope for the best.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

I would have gotten the car myself and asked the Orderly to watch my friend when I pulled the car up as close as possible to the front door. Mostly because of the crutches.

If I had had a REAL bad experience in the parking lot coming in, I would have asked for some surveylance, given a Security Guard a heads-up or maybe even asked for an escort to my car.

 

[Floppy_D]

When I was quallified to use OC (and later quallified several dozen people personally)... we got sprayed, called out a number of fingers shown on a hand 5-10 feet in front of us, and then went through a 15 min course of having to render baton strokes of various sorts, takedown strikes, and Redman fights.

The point is, every one of us was trained to operate past the point of being sprayed... in the event we got hit. About my 10th time of being sprayed, I could damn near type 50WPM, I got so used to it.

I'm not saying that OC is useless, but it is HARDLY a fightstopper. If someone assaults me with OC, I have a pretty good feeling that that is their best bet, and I'll take advantage of the fact that they have a hand occupied at the time.

 

[sm]

I have been dealing with persons with Medical needs, and I used to work in a hospital, my ex worked at one.

1. Elevators are Vertical Coffins.
2. Parking Decks are Death Traps

Trust me, I speak from experience, and this includes guns and incoming rounds.

--
Investigate and Scout ahead if can to avoid and have other plans.

I personally try to avoid decks, and if I have to, I drop off and pick up persons at the front door.
I am not bashful, and can be downright assertive. I have no problem getting Security, be they Hospital or Reg Cops to stand right there and watch a person , with a Nurse (whomever) until I get them inside and I park/ or go my vehicle.

I have no problem asking to be escorted by Security or Cop, to or fro.

I've been known to give a set of keys to a known Security, or Cop to get my car for me.

Hang tag for handicapped, darn right I will use it with a person taking them to and fro Medical needs, and this includes using on my truck if need, as getting into and out my truck is easier than a regular car.

Groups of folks are always good, nobody said one of the group could not be Security or a Cop.

Call ahead find out what is what, use Internet to view these set ups (granted some need website updated).

Note:
Not all the cameras actually work at some hospitals and clinics, oh they will when JACO is coming!
Sorry - it is not about you, instead insurance rates , ratings PR and all for the Medical folks..

BGs know this, so if you see some hanging around, pretty good bet that camera is not "on" where they are.

NO Smoking...<cuss> Campuses
BGs know folks are going to go to areas to smoke.
Often times there is a "bitty smoke patrol" cruising to fuss at smokers...forget BGs doing crime, they want the Fed Money and all for No Smoke Campus.

So areas where folks go smoke, are hi-risk, including in the middle of a parking lot sitting in one's car.

Use front , main entrances and exits.
Exterior Stairwells are Pathways to Harm , like in parking decks.

Set your boundaries, and never give in.
BGs know, for instance if a person is parked at place for Out Pt surgery, or Cancer treatment , or anything else.
-One person is down, the other preoccupied.

 

[mercop]

Good advice, what would you do in the situation given?

 

[Jack Halloran]

I would have beat him mercilessly with a crutch.

 

[Grump]

He has something in his hand. He is only feet away; you can’t back up since your friend in sitting in the car right behind you. There is no time to deploy you gun/knife so you lunge forward and close the few feet of distance and then you feel a burning sensation, he has sprayed you with OC.

Uh, you're saying that upon being bushwhacked that way, you're going to close the distance before you even know what's up? Now I understand that you can instantly conclude bad intent at that point, but you just made his OC dose hit you closer up, gave him an alibi for why he gassed you, and lost your chance to dive over your friend into the driver's seat and short-circuit the whole attack.

It's not just a 3,000-lb bludgeon, it's also a barricade of great usefulness against almost anything short of a bullet. If Mr. Homeless had a gun and wanted to use it, you'd be dead already anyway.

So, at the point where you want to know what I'd do, I'd maintain contact, try to lock him up, and yell for my buddy to be my eyes. Even with the "he jumped at me" alibi, there's no way I would let him convince a court that he could legitimately approach me that way to get into "his" SUV paid for by panhandling all day long. The evil intent is provable.

Such an attack would put me in an extremely bad mood, too. Immobilize him and keep him there any way I can, also asking the passenger to dial 911 if any phone is within reach.

 

[sm]

What I would do?
How about what I have done?

1. Mom is 77, and went in for surgery to be done in the Out Patient Surgery area.
She has difficulty walking due to peripheral neurpathy in both feet, arthristis, asthma...
I pull up at the "load, unload" zone, hit flashers, lock my side, start to enter and am met by male staff "volunteer" with a wheelchair.
Mom is in, safe.
I whip around and park into area not in parking deck.

She is in for some time, my coming and going to visit, all times of day, I never parked in parking deck.

Time to bring her home.
I was parked in big lot, to go upstairs with her getting all the release done,and snagged everything she had to bring home.
I wanted to be hands free, and mobile.
I "borrowed" a trash bag, tossed her bags, everything inside allowing one hand carry.
Ran this down and out to vehicle, nurse is going to wait just inside watching for me, I said I would flip the lights.
I see a City cop, "do you mind watching her, I hate it when she embarrasses me in public".
Lady cop, thought this was funny "Yeah we mom's do that to sons".
Get car, arrive to pick up area, get her in, and gone.

 

[sm]

2.
Peds hospital, construction and so one had to park way over yonder or use deck.
Fine.
Roll up to ER, hit flashers, get assistance, get mom and kid inside.
"Where to park?" I asked Armed Security.
I asked him to ride with me, and walk back being as it was 10pm.
Place had changed and I was not that familiar with new additions, and what was locked, not locked and all.
He was real nice and did.
Kid had a medical reaction to meds.
Spend the night, mom stayed the night.
4am I need to leave.
Security says the shuttle (golf cart in this case) was taking some folks out and I could go with them, second trip.
I did, taken right my vehicle, waited to make sure I started and followed me out.

Next day, time to get kiddo and the mom.
Call ahead, make arrangements, and there they were with nurse, security inside waiting when I rolled up.
Rolled out, we said bye and thanks and left.


See, my life is like this, just how raised.

Went to follow the ex wife home that was getting off at 12 am.
Usually Security took her, others out to cars, or went and got cars.
I parked directly in front of a building she was in on that campus.
Armed Off Duty Cop, wife and I head out the door first, and nothing is happening, all clear.
Split second and cars have rolled up on the corner, one driven right by where I am parked and this gang deal erupted, shots fired.
I dove to truck, less distance than going back.
Cop and wife retreat...got to.
He crawls back low, eases door open...
Officer, I knew him, dicy, still he tossed me his BUG.
I could not take a chance with these folks seeing me open my door or anything.
Shots hitting building anyway, I am hugging low and tight.

Law and Security come in fast and hot!
I dash back inside.

Some places I cannot carry, her building was one.
All my life a firearm is just a tool, not the only tool.
I've used a rolled up magazine, soda bottle, and broken off an antenna of a vehicle in NPE places, or even CCW areas...
Trash can lids work, tossing a pack of smokes and running works.
Not ashamed to admit this.

I have also just run up the middle , full bore, head down and hoped for the best, the drunk scumbag could not swing a stick.
Then I let him have his stick back...repeatedly.
Others got to a car...I was not going to have a person getting released, and her family get hurt in a deck.

 

[GlowinPontiac]

hands clamped firmly around throat and knee into the groin.

dont let go until he stops moving.

 

[Titan6]

Hindsight being 20-20 SM pretty much nailed it.

1. The best way to survive a fight is to not be in one
2. In order to not be in a fight don't set your self up
3. If 1 & 2 Fail, make sure you bring friends, and make sure they bring their guns too.

In your particular case since all three had failed (counted out the broken leg guy) a knee to the groin and/or a sweep of the legs, whatever you need to get the attacker off balance to give you a chance to back off while you get out a knife. A gun being a bad idea when you can't see well and are already in close quarters.

 

[K9 PO]

Its funny, I was running this type of scenario with one of the guys on the job just the other day. I came to the conclusion that the threat must be terminated. Being OC'ed is a PITA but you can definitely fight through it.

In the scenario given, if I have my hands on the attacker, we're both going down and God willing I end up behind the BG with my left arm around his throat and my right hand drawing my firearm which will be placed next to his temple. Squeeze liberally. Condition corrected.

If we don't end up in the position described above, I will bite, kick, yell, poke, attempt to break his neck, etc. Never go down without fighting like a cornered animal. Having been in situations where weapons have been employed against me and where a perp tried to forcibly remove my firearm, do not comply and give up. Scream in the attackers ear, hell try to stuff your arm down his throat. In any situation, by any means necessary.

And think ahead to articulaton for the possible criminal and definite civil trial.

"My life was in imminent danger and I did not think I was going to live because the defendant..........Therefore I had to use...."

 

[mercop]

K9 PO, that is about it. It is interesting how many people have viewed this thread and have not responded. I hope they have at least thought about it. I understand about everything you would have done not to put yourself in the postion. To make the scenario work, we of course would have to take some thinks for granted.

Week before last I was training some folks at the Air Force Special Operations Command at Hurlburt Field FL. We were doing my folder into the fight stress innoculation drill. The last part is to hold another passively resisting student on the ground for 45 seconds. These guys are active duty military, in the middle of a school and had not been sprayed with OC. At the end of the drill they were shot. The whole drill without the threat of anyone trying to kill them or a loved one takes about 2-3 long, long minutes.

And yes, if I am close to within arms reach and anything is coming up in a hand I am lunging forward. If it is OC, a knife or pistol, chance are it is going to come up to mid or high chest because it needs to be on line with me before attacking. If I can force the hand down I may be able to avoid a full blast of OC, a stab or get inside the gun.

Once I have hands on and can not see I am staying hands on. A verticl stun (smash into a hard surface, wall, vehicle or ground) will be a good Central Nervous System disruption. Then it is time to attack the Skelatal and Circulatory sytem. There is a good chance that during the verticl stun the arm is extended giving you the opportunity to destroy the elbow. I like blood over airway chokes since most people have some experience with the panic of choking on food etc but very little with shutting off the blood flow. Attacking the side of the neck also has the plus of breaking their balance at a 45 degree angle.

There are several variables that can be changed is this scenaio. The main point is that it is introduced to people that carry arms. Too often those people equate offensive prowess with being able to defend against those arms and try to use a their hammer on screws. CQB includeds open hand, stick, knife and firearms. Both being able to use them offensively and defensively. The truth is that you must first survive the initial attack before bringing your tools into play.

For anyone that is going to be in the area I will be doing a few demos at the New York City Custom Knife Show next week. If you are around come by and chat.

 

[glockman19]

Grab head, NOT NECK it's not a choke, and twist quickly/violently to the right or left until you hear a snap or crack. leave limp body where it falls and call 911.

Situational awareness #1

 

[mercop]

I agree that it is a deadly force situation. My only problem with a neck break from the front is the damage he does when you extend both of your hands above your nipple line to his head. It does nothing to to control the arms. I also don't like attacking the head with both hands for the same reason I don't like attacking a wrist with both hands. If you miss you are past the last option and loose physical contact and contact means control.

 

[K9 PO]

Mercop,

I'm assuming your show will be at Javitz? I'll be working all weekend but if I do get the moment to break away, let me know where you're demonstration will be at and ill try to make it.

A lot of people behave like sheeps and will be in shock if they never had violence employed against them

Don't let yourself be a victim. Don't think it can't happen to you!

 

[Baba Louie]

a. Thank goodness I had my spectacles on! (might deflect some/most of the OC)
b. Charge forward into him looking to head butt (mine) into (his) face(?) coupled w/ one or more of the following:
c. Knee to groin (stretchin' carpet baby), strike open hand to throat, keys in hand to eyes?

(Might be that I was holding friend's crutches whilst friend was getting seated, in which case I'm holding a stick or two when the attack began)

Or... as others have mentioned, bring car around to pick up patient at door since most of the hospitals around here wheelchair their patients to the door for you to do just that anyway. They also have mounted bicycle security roaming their garages/grounds FWIW.