The Garage- what would you do?

[mercop]

Picking you friend up at the door is obvious good planning. Instead of the scenaio was OK you just got sprayed and have to wrestle the guy would it be as interesting Don't ruin the movie.

 

[sm]

Footwear

20/20 hindsight was so clear.

I blew it big time, and matters got real damn serious real damn fast in a parking deck.

Maintenance, with the uniform and jumpsuits, these folks looked like maintenance folks.
You know, normal stuff like replace light bulbs, painting and whatever else.

After all hell broke loose, including the rear glass of driver's side exploding behind me, and then the sheet metal crunching to evade ...

Those were really really nice shoes, and NOT something a Maintenance person wears...

School of hard knocks tosses out some really hard lessons.
They do tend to stick with one though....

 

[the lone gunman]

I really enjoy these kind of posts. It reminds me that no matter how I train with my weapon, I need to think ahead of time to avoid the need for my weapon. Thanks.

 

[sacp81170a]

Week before last I was training some folks at the Air Force Special Operations Command at Hurlburt Field FL.

Uhh, if you really were training SOF guys, you shouldn't be mentioning it on a public forum. BTDT. What squadron were they with?

 

[mercop]

Here you go bro, I have permission and understand OPSEC/PERSEC. If you have any questions you can e-mail me at [email protected].
http://www2.afsoc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123059047

 

[sacp81170a]

I see no mention of your name. It's been my experience in the past that we(military) have been very guarded about using civilians for training purposes. A Rob Leatham or someone of that caliber, I'd go for. Excuse me if I remain skeptical.

 

[mercop]

I was not there for firearms training. Again please feel free to e-mail me. There are a lot of people training these folks that you will not see their names published.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Mercop, I just checked out your website. Pretty extensive. I will go back and read more in depth.
I have a question. Why would you adopt this firing stance?

As for the situation in the OP. I would go for a high/low grapple and use my legs to force him back and down. As we went down my strong side knee would be headed for his groin lower abdomen. Using my body weight to force my knee into his groin/LA I would regain my feet and STOMP his face and upper chest area until he is unresponsive.

 

[mercop]

That is the High Ready Positon of Cener Axis Relock. I am a master intructor. I call it the hunting postion since you are looking for work. Unlike other stances you can see what is happening just in front of you. The primary idea of CAR is that the front sights are at your natural focal distance of 11-13 inches. You will be surprized how big the front sight is and how easily it focuses. The second part is that the wrist is locked like you were throwing a punch. The recoil takes the path of least resistance, at this angle it is straight back.

On several forums there is much discussion over CAR. Most people who dog it do so for two reasons, one, they have not been through the course. Two, they can't make any money off of it because it belongs to Paul Castle.

In MCS my primary focus is the open hand, stick, knife and pistol within seven yards. IMHO nothing works better with firearms at this distance than CAR.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Had not seen it before. I am past that portion of my life and have not kept up with changes in the field.
What is your opinion of my reaction to the OP?
I was not "dogging it" just hadn't seen it before. Kind of reminded me of something I saw in a movie. And was not sure if you were being serious or not. No offence intended.

 

[mercop]

I liked it to the point where I had no response The scenario is intended to see what weapon carriers will do when the bad belt is not an option.

No offense, it does look strange until you try it. My dept adopted it. We have not shot any BGs with it but have shot a bunch of Pit Bulls during entries. Small target, with friendlies close to the field of fire. All rounds landed in the land shark.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Thanks for the input. I have used that response a couple of times and had success both times.
I have been beating my head against the wall to get point shooting allowed at the range I go to. NO luck yet. Seems I am in the minority and most of the members are target shooters. And that is fine by me, but it would be nice if they were a little more open to different disciplines.
Do you have any seminars planned for Florida?

 

[mercop]

We are going to do a civilian course in the Ft Walton Beach area sometime in 08'. Just not sure when or what we will be doing. Me thinks knife and stick. Where are you in FL?

IMO CAR is more than point shooting. People who are interested in shooting pretty targets are not interested in survival. When I teach a knife course I am wearing a training pistol. I don't believe in a weapon, I believe in mindset and system.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

I am in north east central florida. Just west of Daytona Beach.

I agree that the mindset is the most important part of a successful strategy in any part of life. It is essential in a fight or flight scenario.

 

[mercop]

Keep checking my site. Not sure about anything except we will be there sometime.

 

[cyclist]

Late to the party but posting anyway, like they say the best place to be in a gunfight is being someplace else....

You get to your car and open the passenger side door for your friend and start helping him swing his legs in. You hear footsteps behind you and turn around to see the same man from the morning coming around the back of an SUV parked next to you. He has something in his hand. He is only feet away; you can’t back up since your friend in sitting in the car right behind you. There is no time to deploy you gun/knife so you lunge forward and close the few feet of distance and then you feel a burning sensation, he has sprayed you with OC. You now have both of your hands on him….but you cannot open your eyes. What do you do?

Congrats, you've just attacked the panhandling owner of that SUV parked next to you. Some of those panhandlers make pretty good money, some better than $20k-$60K a year. The panhandler was just walking back to his car with his pepper spray ready in case someone tried to jump him and take his day's money. Coming around the corner he sees you lunging at him so he quite rightly defensively sprayed his attacker in the face. Prove me wrong, think about it.

You didn't check the area for nearby threats: strike one.
You didn't leave your friend inside the building to go bring the car up to the door: strike two.
You boxed yourself in-between the vehicles and door with no ready escape: strike three.

I'm no expert, and I make plenty of mistakes, but I do try to learn from them.

And, yeah, I can be a smartarse at times.

Next time, hypothetically speaking, leave your friend inside the building then go retrieve your car since your friend is probably in pain and probably isn't used to walking with the crutches yet. Then when you walk across the mostly empty parking lot sort of walk wide keeping an eye open on possible ambush locations, you don't have to "walk like a Ninja walking barefoot on broken glass", but do stay aware. And as you approach your car sort of swing a little wide to get a glance around before walking into the "alley" between your car and the next one. Keys in hand double nicely as defensive weapons with no warning if attacked, sort of a natural response. Or just throw your keys at the attacker as you slam the door and roll over the hood or run around your car to escape.

Just some thoughts. I hate it when someone mistakes me for a bad guy.

 

[mercop]

Truth be known the scenario is to see what people will do if they have are blind and hands on. Tried to add a little story line. I know everyone is Teddy Tactical and would never do this or that. The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial in DC is full of the names of great men and woman who would have sworn they would never do the things that got them killed.

 

[cyclist]

Okay, I'll play, and I'm nowhere near to being a Teddy Tactical.

Subject engaged, my eyes blinded (hopefully temporarily) by some sort of spray, got the potential attacker in my hands. I think I'd be yelling at the person I just helped into the car to start calling for help, honking the horn, grab his crutches and maybe help if he can. I'm thinking I'd want to control the attacker's hands and hoping he doesn't have a knife or gun. Fighting by brail at this point try to get the attacker up against a car tire or bumper, pin his leg or arm with my legs, try to get the spray out of his hand, knee strikes if possible, try to control and subdue or render him into a submit or flee decision, or try to get myself into an escape or flee position. Don't know, every situation is a little different, don't know how the attacker is fighting, don't know how motivated he is to continue the battle, don't know if he's bigger or stronger than me so will assume equal until I find out otherwise. I'm fighting to defend both myself and the person in the car so am willing to escalate into do anything mode, down and dirty, got no idea what the attacker will do or how far he's willing to go in his attack. Sheetfest (can I say that here?apparently not) now, attack and subdue and make the attacker want to leave, attack and escape and get clear until my eyes can clear up a little or get some distance to bring other tools into use. Got no idea what the person in the car is doing at this point, hopefully something more than screaming, hopefully he's yelling that the police are on the way, hopefully he's yelling for help and honking the horn, hopefully he'll throw me one of his crutches assuming my eyes have cleared enough to catch it, hopefully the attacker hasn't brought his own gun or knife into play or hasn't managed to get ahold of anything I may or may not have on my person. Got no idea, depends on how things go. Hopefully the attacker doesn't have a friend or four about to join in the fray.

'scuse me now, I think I need to go find some more trianing somewhere, I don't like getting sprayed in the face and attacked by pan handlers while trapped between cars and doors.

Was this more in line of what you were looking for?

 

[Ed Ames]

The only point I can see to that story is to demonstrate the importance of being polite to all people, even people you think you will never meet again. That "STOP" (scum) routine *WILL* get you pounded in real life. There are plenty of people who will go out, buy a weapon, and come back and wait for you if you treat them that way.

Beyond that... I've never made a newly-released patient walk through a parking garage. Every hospital I've ever been to has a patient loading zone in the front and are happy (virtualy insist on actually) to have you pull your car up and load the patient from wheel chair into vehicle. I've even seen patients walk from their room to the lobby at which point the hospital insisted they get into a chair for the ride out to the curb.

Short circuit the problem and pay attention to your manners and your environment early.

That said, once you are in a fight you fight. Wonderful thing about endorphin rushes is that they block pain and worst comes to worst you grab ahold and start slamming.

 

[mercop]

How many times are we going to hear about how you would not make the person walk? I said it was only added for the case of the scenario.

And I will issue a verbal challenge to anyone I consider a threat. Not doing so because you believe that might make them angry makes no sense to me.

 

[Ed Ames]

When you post a scenario you ask for it to be disected and for lessons to be created from it.

There are two lessons that can be drawn from your scenario:
1) An armed society is a polite society and you NEVER KNOW WHO IS ARMED. So be polite, people.
2) Think security EARLY. Think about it before you park, before you start walking to your car, before you walk out knowing that you'll have a sick and probably medicated person to take care of on top of everything else that might happen.

I know you may have thought there was some deeper question but there wasn't. How you fight once you have OC in your eyes doesn't matter at all. Think ahead. Be polite. Treat people with respect. Treat situations with respect. Use the tools at your disposal. Your brain is the real weapon -- use it.

 

[tnieto2004]

And I will issue a verbal challenge to anyone I consider a threat.

What would be the purpose of doing so anyways? Please explain .. How would that help you in this situation you posted ..

 

[mercop]

Failure to comply with a verbal challenge would go towards showing deliberate indiffernce on the part of the BG in the eyes of a reasonable person. If you tell someone to "stay back" and they fail to do so I would be fair to assume that intended to do you harm.

 

[tnieto2004]

So you are stating that if you get ambushed while getting into your car (with a witness as you stated ) you must first tell them to "stay back" as they rush you and after they begin the attack you are free to combat them hands on? I don't quite understand your point .. Why would any "reasonable person" allow themselves to be in such a situation? The point of most S&T is to prevent this kind of situation.. So I guess I would say that the "victim" in this case made a lot of mistakes ..

 

[mercop]

Yes the person made mistakes. That is how they got in the situation. About the verbal challenge, I was referring to the first encounter, not the second.