The Garage- what would you do?

[tnieto2004]

Is this thread just a very cryptic way of saying each person should be trained in hand to hand combat?? That what it seems like to me.. Regardless of what ANYONE says on the internet, no one can say what they will for sure do in this situation or what the outcome may be.. The situation at hand is far too broad to merit a single answer.. I think many lose focus of the preparation that proceeds an attack .. No matter what anyone on the internet or in real life says about their training or their experience, so many variables come into play in different situations to where the “most” prepared can sometimes come out a loser in an attack.. With that said, I prepare myself mentally and physically for the worst possible situations in order to minimize the probability of being a victim..

 

[BridgeWalker]

Back a couple pages someone mentioned knee to groin, hand to throat. I'm far from a tactical genius, but seems to me that leaves a huge amount of uncontrolled potential leverage from a position of relative weakness. If someone tries that one me, they find themselves on the ground.

Arms, legs, and head can all be used to leverage out of a pin like that very, very quickly and easily. Either beat the crap out of him or pin him well. Holding someone down by throat and groin is neither of those. You'd be getting too close and making yourself too vulnerable.

I'm a woman and I have a kid in tow. If I need to enter a parking garage at night I ask a couple of people to accompany me. Very, very few people in the general population mean ill; I pick someone to trust rather than trusting that no one is lying in wait. At a hospital that is pretty easy because they are pretty well staffed and generally looking out for safety concerns.

 

[mercop]

I am not trying to be cryptic. You need open hand, stick, knife and pistol skills to have a system. Not being trianed in one of them does not mean they won't be used against you.

 

[tnieto2004]

So those four to have the complete "system" you talk of? Is that the purpose of the thread? I am trying to understand what you are saying but you haven't made that very clear .. What was the purpose of the thread?

I am not trying to be rude ..

 

[mercop]

I would never say complete The purpose of the thread was to see what the reaction would be if people were sprayed with OC and had to grapple with an attacker.

 

[Ed Ames]

Failure to comply with a verbal challenge would go
towards showing deliberate indiffernce ...

And what's wrong with deliberate indifference? It isn't a crime, it isn't even suspicious. I am deliberately indifferent to madmen who shout inappropriately or appear to hear voices. I'm deliberately indifferent to panhandlers. I'm deliberately
indifferent to people who have failed to zip their pants.

A decent lawyer would spin deliberate indifference like this: "My client was walking along minding his own business, in a public place, when this aggressive man started shouting for him to stop. My client was intimidated by the aggressor, thinking he was going to be accosted, and attempted to go about his lawfull business without making eye contact or acknowledging the aggressive man shouting illegal orders in a public place."

 

[mercop]

It means something if you feel threatened because of a specific threat and tell someone to get back and they fail to do so. No it is not a crime, it goes to articulate the totality of the circumstances.

I have used it several times in my own legal defense and that of other officers. And guess what else? You yell it loud to attract the attention of witnesses. I have also used that in my defense.

 

[tnieto2004]

I read on another forum where you insinuated that being sprayed merited “Articulitable deadly force IMHO.” (What is “Articulitable” anyways??). Were you stating that being sprayed would give you justification in using deadly force??


http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14119

There is where I read it

 

[mercop]

It is, threaten to spray a police officer with OC and see what happens. If you spray me with OC I can only assume you plan on causing me serious physical injury or death.

 

[tnieto2004]

So now the situation is if we were an on duty police officer?? What if it was a non LEO and they used "Articulitable deadly force" against pepper spray?? What if it was on a OFF duty LEO ..

 

[mercop]

Whether I am teaching police or civilians I tell them that if OC Spray is used on them as a weapon they may be able to articulate deadly force. Again we are back to the totality of the circumstances.

There of course is a difference between someone threatening to spray you in the parking lot of a rest stop gas station at two in the morning and a drunk cousin at a back yard BBQ threatening the same.

If you do CCW and get sprayed and over powered by the BG and he finds your holstered pistol. do you think he is going to think cop or armed citizen? He will think cop and put one in your brain housing unit. Just food for thought.

 

[Ed Ames]

A cop in uniform is a different and totally irrelevant case here. A cop in uniform does have legal authority to detain in many cases, so an order to "stop" is a lawful order. Take off the uniform and the situation changes. At that point it is, from the perspective of the victim (person being ordered to "STOP!"), an unlawful and unreasonable request.

If you are not a cop in uniform you only open yourself up to liability by insigating an incident in this way.

Think of it from the perspective of the victim. You are walking along, it's dark, maybe your wife or husband is sick or injured, maybe you got to the hospital in the back of the ambulance holding your loved one's hand, and the busses have stopped running, and you don't have your cell phone, and going to ask someone for some help because and they start shouting at you to "STOP!" while holding out their left hand in a commanding way and reaching suggestively towards their belt with their right hand... you are going to take it as a threat because it is a threat.

In most of our cases, no big deal... we've got the framework to realize that some people are just scared and socially inept. Now get someone who isn't handling the situation well. Maybe he's just had enough. Maybe he walked out of the psych ward. Maybe the person he was visiting in the hospital was his girlfriend and he put her there and knows he's going to jail anyway once she can testify.

Do you really want to single yourself out for such a person?

I don't. I'll just use common sense well before any situation can develop.

 

[tnieto2004]

Whether I am teaching police or civilians I tell them that if OC Spray is used on them as a weapon they may be able to articulate deadly force.

Is there any law you can show to support this concerning civilians?

As Ed Ames said,

A cop in uniform is a different and totally irrelevant case here

 

[mercop]

So as a civilian you don't believe in verbal warnings? At what point would you use deadly force? Only against a drawn firearm?

 

[mercop]

The is no specific law to show that you can shoot someone with a knife or gun either. Again we are back to the totality of the circumstances.

 

[tnieto2004]

So you are saying that pepper spray can cause great bodily injury or death (while possible .. I find it hard to convince a jury) and should be dealt with as a deadly weapon? Where do you "teach" these things?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-lethal_force

That is a brief definition of non-lethal weapons or less than lethal

 

[mercop]

No, I am saying that a reasonable person would believe that if you are sprayed with OC during an attack, that it would be almost impossible for you to defend yourself leaving you at the mercy of your attacker which could lead to the possiblity of serious physical injury or death since he has already committed several felonies against you.

I teach at several locations. What are you trying to imply by putting "teach" in quotation marks?

Sir, may I ask what your background is, what you do for a living and your experience and expertise is when it comes to use of force? I notice you spend little to no time in this sub forum but a lot in the other hardware forums. Is there a particular reason that you have chosen this thread to premier your thoughts on tactics?

 

[tnieto2004]

This is a forum to come discuss S&T why would you need any of my personal information? Giving away that type of information is poor strategy from any standpoint .. Consider my post’s worth what you paid for them.. I put “teach” because it seems like you honestly have a warped view (in my opinion, of course) of when lethal force should be used.. And I wondered who all you are teaching your opinions to.. And I call them your opinions because I haven’t seen anywhere in the law that substantiates your claims..

No need to get upset .. I am just conversing

If you are upset I am sorry and I will leave your thread

 

[mercop]

I am not upset, just wondering. I find that when I have kids in Field Training and train civilians they want absolutes which do not exist in use of force issues.

I never said that you can or should kill someone who sprays you with OC. And notice I never said shoot. Just like in the scenario I am going to use a level of force that has the likelyhood of causing serious physical injury or death. Not that I would try to kill them. I will introduce techniques with a high probability of stopping them from continuing there actions.

I am not sure how much time you have spent studying the law but it is very vauge when it comes to these issues. I hope this allows you to understand my thoughts and concepts a little better.

 

[BullfrogKen]

How about we just drop this discussion, mercop? I personally don't agree with a few of the statements contained here in this thread, but I'm not going to contribute to making this discussion any more argumentative than it's already become.


The scenario started out tilted. Many of us do think about these scenarios ahead of time, and take proactive measures to avoid being caught in a situation flatfooted, with a crippled friend in tow, boxed in between cars in a parking garage . . .


This scenario is set up to highlight certain, specific actions as effective, and discredit others as ineffective. Don't be surprised when a whole lot of folks here simply reject the premise. A hands-on fight is what you'd go to. We get that. That might not be the answer for an elderly or physically challenged practitioner. In fact, I'd hazard that outcome would pretty rather dismal.


It's easy to offer training advice geared towards strong, young, fit men when that's who you're used to training. It's tougher to offer it to the wider population, which is exactly why I hate any of these, "What would you do?" discussions.

 

[mercop]

Bullfrog, thank you for your observations. As far as only considering big fit men, how do you know who I train? Right now I am working on a course for people that are confined to a wheelchair. I will be doing it for the famous Magree Rehabilitation Center in Philly.

The truth is that you may not be able to choose to go hands on, and I thought that most people here would like some information or at least discussion on what to do in those situations.

I am not prone to just go hands on. I am also a firearms instructor with multiple certifications. I am also dedicated to to realistic open hand options for police.

I will heed your advice and not post anymore unless something is asked of me. Sorry if you feel "what would you do" discussions are a waste of time. I do understand becasue I hate conversations about the best gun or round.

 

[sm]

It's easy to offer training advice geared towards strong, young, fit men when that's who you're used to training. It's tougher to offer it to the wider population, which is exactly why I hate any of these, "What would you do?" discussions.

Agree.

My take is known by BullfrogKen, Jeff White and others around here.

I have nothing against quality training and folks taking said training.

Reality is, many folks do want to be responsible for self, have the attitude they will not be a victim, and everything else.
Reality is:

-We have an aging society, and this will continue.
-Physically Limited folks, and not all are older.
-Folks that work on Military, Federal and other restricted areas.
-Single parent families.
-Taking care of elderly parents.

These are the types of folks I chose to assist with.
My Mentors were some of these types.
Some were Veterans of Wars, and lost limbs, sight, and could not physically do what they used to.
So Military folks, Active, Reserve, Retired, and Vets, from Rangers, Special Forces, USAF, Navy, Nat'l Guard...LEOs, Rescue Teams, SWAT , Bodyguards...

Sat down, accessed, assisted, and worked with the folks that were not young, stropping and all.

NO known gun schools, or training schools in my coming up.
It did not matter if all a widow women had was a H&R 999, she learned that gun. More important was thinking and not getting into a situation in the first place.

Some fellow in a wheelchair, having to go to Vets Hospital, maybe the only gun he had, to conceal, was a Hardware Store 32 revolver, but he knew how to use it - more important how to get to and from the Vets Hospital the most safe.
Special Forces told him - "screw the pride, you earned respect of me and mine, by fighting in your war, ask for help, someone to take you"

I know folks that have taken training, young and stropping, but cancer gets a hold of a wife, and some priorities are greater than guns, knives, taking a class or going shooting.
That wife, or husband, or mom, or dad, or whomever going through whatever is more important and the brain, the thinking ahead, is more important than any g-d damn gun or tactical knife.

They will stay safe, they have called me for instance, me, I am nobody, never been to a known school for squat!
"Steve, I am wore out, tired, and I gotta take them in to ER, and I am not thinking straight, help".
I head out.
HALT : Hungry , Angry, Lonely and Tired will get one hurt, or dead.

I am more fresh, I am more able to think, access, see, and everything else.
This lady or gent may have been in Combat, taken training classes, they will survive, but they know they are vulnerable, and they have nothing to prove by being stupid, or having an ego.
Not to mention what good are they to the one really down and sick if they are not able to take care of themselves?

Got concerned once taking a husband, and his wife in at 1am.
I pulled into a Fire Stations and laid on the horn.
Fire Dept ran out, told them what the deal was.
Screw the g-d damn guns, I got a FD to call cops and I got a damn escort to the ER.

Not sure what the damn schools teach to do, but I did what I did and dammit it works!