Weekend Militia raids by ATF.

[TexasRifleman]

OK, several threads locked earlier today, I would like to avoid that.

But, it appears that real charges are being filed against these guys, some actual details are emerging.

Appears to be a bit more than just the gov going after Christians and gun owners for no reason, at least from the charges filed.

I only post this to say basically that it doesn't seem that "guns" or "gun ownership" had anything to do with this at all, so the tin foil can go back in the kitchen.



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/

WASHINGTON -- Nine suspects tied to a Christian militia in the Midwest are charged with conspiring to kill police officers, then attack a funeral in the hopes of killing more law enforcement people, federal prosecutors said Monday.

U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade said agents moved on the group because the Hutaree members were planning a violent reconaissance mission sometime in April -- just a few days away.

Members of the group called Hutaree are charged in the case, including their leader, David Brian Stone, also known as "Captain Hutaree."

Once other officers gathered for a slain officer's funeral, the group planned to detonate homemade bombs at the funeral, killing more, according to newly unsealed court papers.

The indictment includes charges of seditious conspiracy, possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, teaching the use of explosives, and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction -- homemade bombs.

The indictment charges members of the group conspired "to levy war against the United States, (and) to oppose by force the authority of the government of the United States."

The charges follow FBI raids over the weekend on locations in Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana.
According to investigators, the Hutaree view local, state, and federal law enforcement personnel as a "brotherhood" and an enemy, and planned to attack them as part of an armed struggle against the U.S. government.

Eight suspects have been arrested by the FBI, and one more is being sought. Of the eight captured, seven are due in court later Monday.

Andrew Arena, head of the FBI's field office in Detroit, said the case "is an example of radical and extremist fringe groups which can be found throughout our society. The FBI takes such extremist groups seriously, especially those who would target innocent citizens and the law enforcement officers who protect the citizens of the United States."

 

[ny32182]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100329/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fbi_raids

It says there they planned to kill as many police officers as possible in order to spark a nation-wide uprising against the govt.

 

[taliv]

so the only thing firearm related appears to be possession while committing a half dozen other crimes

 

[flyinrob]

It is now obvious this has nothing to do with 2a rights, but before all the details were out, people were lineing up to defend these idiots against the evil ATF, etc.

I suppose they(gov agencies) deserve that initial reaction from gun owners based on their past performance.

I just hope this doesn't turn out to be another news opportunity to discredit all gun owners.

 

[Gouranga]

Definitely does not sound good for these guys. The media did their best to spin it though. I guess they gotta do what they gotta do to sell news and get more readers.

Should have been "US based terrorist group arrested for planning attacks against the US government." Does not sound as good though as "Christian militia raided by FBI and ATF."

My fear is there will be more and more of these groups with all the unrest in the US. IMO, more of a reason for CCW. As a CCW permit holder, and weapons carrier I can tell you, I see ANYONE going after a cop in my town, I would not hesitate to back him/her (meaning the COP) up. That just ain't right.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I suppose they(gov agencies) deserve that initial reaction from gun owners based on their past performance

Yes they do.

I just hope this doesn't turn out to be another news opportunity to discredit all gun owners.

Sadly,it probably will.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm withholding judgment. It's far too early to know what's really going on, and I certainly wouldn't rely on the newsmedia to accurately (or even honestly) report on anything even slightly gun related. They'll report anything the BATFE or VPC tells them as unassailable fact, so long as it makes... or can be made to make all gun owners look bad.

 

[TexasRifleman]

It's far too early to know what's really going on, and I certainly wouldn't rely on the newsmedia to accurately (or even honestly) report on anything

No doubt, but the indictment being open at least allows for some real info to come out, enough to maybe slow down the speculation here and other gun forums etc.

And, the only firearm charge in the indictment was that they simply had some guns around while they committed other crimes.

Even with media spin, the facts simply don't hold up that this had anything to do with 'guns'.

 

[Cosmoline]

Based on dozens of similar terrorist cases, I suspect an FBI agent was the one coming up with all the nefarious schemes. Maybe he had them swear an oath to Bin Laden and to the evil for which he stands.

There is enormous political pressure from the Dems in power to "do something" to stop the purported rise in militancy on the right. This has been a drum beat for many months now, led by the so-called southern poverty law center. The ultimate goal is to discredit anyone who disagrees with the federal authorities. So I'm taking any allegations of "sedition" with a grain of salt. My guess is there are no bombs, no IED's, no WMD's and no real plans other than the ones suggested by the agent himself.

 

[everallm]

To inject a little fact in the chatter.

Link to the charges

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29094078/Stone

Precis (can't copy and paste details, it's a locked PDF file)

Charges of

Seditious Conspiracy

Attempt to use weapons of mass destruction

Teaching and demonstrating the use of explosive materials

Carrying, Using and Possesing a firearm during and in relation to a crime of violence (twice)

 

[Deanimator]

Link to the charges

The Duke lacross team were charged with actual crimes... just ones that never really happened.

We don't know yet whether these crimes happened and in the ways asserted.

 

[jnyork]

Before the day is out, we will hear these nutcases being mentioned in the same breath as Tea Partiers, Red State republicans and NRA members. Just watch.

 

[rbernie]

The Duke lacross team were charged with actual crimes... just ones that never really happened.

We don't know yet whether these crimes happened and in the ways asserted.

And we will not use THR as a means of speculating, either.

 

[Zoogster]

Based on dozens of similar terrorist cases, I suspect an FBI agent was the one coming up with all the nefarious schemes. Maybe he had them swear an oath to Bin Laden and to the evil for which he stands.

This is actually often the case. Agents suggest activities, or push hard to build something or sell something to create bigger crimes, and even are one of the main participants if not the sole individuals in making it happen. Then charges are levied against everyone within an identifiable group including for things primarily done by the agent or agents.
Get agent undercover. Get agent to escalate fears, tensions and promote some big plans that will lead to arrest. Or even just get agent to find and assist the most radical nutjob of the group even if he is shunned by most of the group and not taken seriously. If they get even one person to assist them partially in any aspect they will then charge the entire group for the conspiracy.
Sometimes it is not even an agent they get to do all these things, but an informant, often times someone easily manipulated because they have potential charges hanging over their head.
(Like they tried with Randy Weaver holding NFA shotgun charges over his head for an infamous example. Trying to force him to be an informant on the local racist group. When he refused to cooperate and ousted another informant it led to the situation.)
These informants are often even less trustworthy than the agents.


So I am cautious to believe either side.
How much of what they are accused of was actually planned, how much is embellished details.
What percentage of the conspired crimes were even actually conspired, and what percentage were just the agent's claims, or things he or an informant just suggested at some point that nobody listened to, or even never happened.
We probably will never know. All we know is they did not like a radical group for some reason, and moved to take them down. It is a given that any resulting story will give the perspective that these were really bad people.

 

[inherentical]

Nutjobs are nutjobs, whether labeled christian, muslim, or atheist. You plan to blow innocent people up to make a political point, you're a terrorist.

Cart 'em off to Gitmo.

 

[xXxplosive]

Know hom many Militia Groups decended on Lexington, Mass on April 19th...
and TG they did.....now we know how those darn Lobster Backs felt.

 

[ny32182]

Just for the record, I agree with tmpick.

 

[NG VI]

I don't approve of this sort of thing one bit.

However I also don't approve of the BATFE any more now than I did when I woke up this morning.

 

[Low Budget Shooter]

Dear THR,

So far we are only hearing what the FBI is accusing them of. It could be that most or all of the people in this group have not committed any crime at all. I think labeling them "nutjobs" could be postpone until we learn more. If the FBI ever arrests any group I belong to for conspiracy, I sure hope all of you will want all the facts, including my view of them, before throwing me under the bus.

Thanks!

LBS

 

[wishin]

U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade said agents moved on the group because the Hutaree members were planning a violent reconaissance mission sometime in April -- just a few days away.

A "violent" reconnaissance is a bit of a contradiction. The idea of a reconnaisance is to gather information surreptitiously. I can see their lawyer arguing probable cause for arrest - they were just preparing for a 4th of July fireworks display.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

There is no reason to link this accused crime to 2A rights in any way. This whole news story makes me sick on every level for a multitude of reasons. If these folks are guilty, they deserve every last bit of what they are sentenced.

 

[wvshootist]

Dear THR,

So far we are only hearing what the FBI is accusing them of. It could be that most or all of the people in this group have not committed any crime at all. I think labeling them "nutjobs" could be postpone until we learn more. If the FBI ever arrests any group I belong to for conspiracy, I sure hope all of you will want all the facts, including my view of them, before throwing me under the bus.

Thanks!

LBS

I hear you LBS! Calling these so called militia members nutjobs or crazy is way premature. If they were actually planing what they are accused of they will get their justice. We must always scrutinise claims made by the goverment and not take everything it claims as gospel.

The day may not be too far off that groups that belong to gun clubs and such are labeled as militia and become targets of the government. We are already portrayed as nut jobs in the media.

If this group was planning to kill police and innocent bystanders then I hope they are sentenced to Hell. But let us not send them there prematurely without their day in court.

 

[Mr. T]

This seems far too convenient for the ATF and the FBI and gives them an opportunity to see how the public will react when they come to grab guns. How many of you remember Ruby Ridge and WACO; these agencies tend to pick at the "fringes" of society to see what they can get away with and see how the rest of society will react. I am not condoning armed violence against our government, but there should be a larger outcry from people over this. Are we now allowing our law enforcement to convict people before they carry out the crime? All in all, it was probably the undercover agent who abdicated the violence against LE and then said oh yeah these guys are planning stuff. I don't trust the FBI and I don't trust the ATF; both agencies wipe their butts on the Constitution everyday for fun. If this militia group was planning offensive action against LE then they should walk the plank, but again I can't help but think that this was a set up by our ATF and FBI -- too convenient and it distracts people from the real problems in the country like the unpopular health care bill and the illegal immigration B.S. that they're trying to push through. Personally I'd give the militia group more latitude here than either the ATF or the FBI. MHO

 

[wgsigs]

Deleted - didn't add anything to the "discussion"

 

[Evergreen]

If the government says they are guilty, THEY'RE GUILTY! Never question the government all you tin-foil hat wearing weirdos.

Ok, maybe they really did conspire to do this, but whats to say that the government, especially the Feds, cannot go and make false claims against group of armed men as an excuse to disband and disarm them and take away their potential to defend themselves? Not saying that this is the case, I am just asking, "What IF?"

If what is said is true, this militia of so-called "Christians" are very deranged and delusional. I noticed on their website they have some anti-semitic forums, where they go trashing on Jews. So, I suppose they may have been in some way connected with white supremacists, although I cannot say for a fact. They don't go out of their way of making racist comments on their site, but if you check their chat forums some of the topics are bit condescending.


Anyhow, I wish people weren't so fast to accept everything the government says as God-given truth and facts. IMO, if the ATF and Feds had the ability, none of us would even be allowed to openly express our views on this message forum. Thats why we have a constitution and bill of rights, which give people a voice and limit the power of a "BIG GOVERNMENT". However, there are many people who are seeking to remove those rights.