Weight vs Volume

[Manyirons]

Buncha thanks to GMATOV for studying upon the question of volume vs weight with black powder and substitutes.

Been cold, no shootin so decided to break out one electronic and one regular scale, Lee dippers and Blackpowder, Five types, Elephant, Wano, Schutzen, Swiss and (Gag) Geox. Grades rangin from "Null" priming (Swiss) to 1F.

Synthetics used were; Pyrodex P, Pyrodex CTG, and 777 in 2F and 3F.

Measuring done in groups of ten, dipper dragged through powder leavin a heap on top leveled off with stainless steel 6" ruler.

Ran this several times as i did'nt get results like i expected, and heres a weird one; Elephant, Wano, Schutzen, Swiss and Goex in 3F HAVE DIFFERING SPECIFIC GRAVITIES, not greatly but enough to measure!

And oh ya! The chart as kindly provided by Lee on this dipper kit in some cases aint even close!

Without larding this post up, heres the bottom line. Iffin ya want anythin like what yer powder charge ACTUALLY, IN REALITY WEIGHS ya gotta break that scale out and confirm!

Simply setting yer adjustable measure to say 40grains aint no guarantee yer gettin anything like 40grains!

And when ya gets to that Synthetic Pyro or 777, ya REALLY better do yer weighing.

So, i've now changed my system, have a full size powder measure made for black powder, just like reloading for smokeless guns, set it with scale, weigh every tenth for spot check so i KNOW what weight i'm really shootin!

So for both rifle and pistol will be going to premeasured and VERIFIED charges in paper combustable powder bags.

Whee ha! ANOTHER variable eliminated!

 

[Low Key]

Here's a different way of saying the same thing, and some extra info directly from Hodgdons.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/using.php

The following text was copied from the link above and provides the reasons why you do not get the same weights as BP when you weigh the same volume of one of the subs. Interesting reading.


"All charges of Triple Seven or Pyrodex should be measured by VOLUME not weight. A simple, adjustable blackpowder measure is the correct tool for this job. All loads listed in this brochure are measured by VOLUME.
Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.
Pyrodex is lighter in weight than blackpowder and weighs only about 70% as much as blackpowder. However, because Pyrodex yields more energy per pound than does blackpowder, the same volume of Pyrodex gives similar performance to blackpowder. Pyrodex loads given in this manual for muzzleloading guns are measured by volume, not weight."

 

[Gewehr98]

Just curious...

Been cold, no shootin so decided to break out one electronic and one regular scale, Lee dippers and Blackpowder, Five types, Elephant, Wano, Schutzen, Swiss and (Gag) Geox. Grades rangin from "Null" priming (Swiss) to 1F.

Why the (Gag) in front of Goex?

I've been having excellent results with Goex Cartridge PB in my 1874 Sharps compressed behind 500gr swaged spitzers.

Elephant Powder is no more, btw. I understand it was underpowered, fouled a lot, and gave ignition delays compared to Goex.

 

[Beartracker]

Goex is one of my favorites too. Thats only because it worked for me for many years with super results in all my muzzle loaders. This Pyrodex"P" is becoming a close second.
After weighing my Pyrodex "P " today it was surprising to me how right on my measurer is with this powder. 20g was 20g, 25 and 30g was right on also.
Guess I better weigh some Goex 3f to see what I get. Mike

 

[Manyirons]

Why the (Gag) in front of Goex?

Compared to Swiss, my experience with Goex has been less than happy. Dirty, sooty, etc. Lower power too, 'Less bang for the buck'.

Not hideous powder, personally dislike it.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Whee ha! ANOTHER variable eliminated!

Now all you have to contend with will be:
Hangovers, weather, getting older, sun in your eyes, forgetting......wish I could remember what though

Duncan

 

[Manyirons]

Now all you have to contend with will be:
Hangovers, weather, getting older, sun in your eyes, forgetting......wish I could remember what though

Duncan

Duncan!

You left out adulation of the masses and being legendary sex symbol!

 

[Old Dragoon]

I guess my Elephant BP is pretty valuable then, I have 7# FFG and 2 # FFFg left from the 15 Lbs. I bought for $10.00 five years ago from a guy getting out of BP shooting. All dated 1997 and all ,I expect, will shoot just fine like the can I'm shooting now.

Ain't the Dupont from 40 years ago, but then NOTHING is or has been since Dupont burned down.

 

[gmatov]

many Irons,

If you'd said George was right, in a way, I'd be happier. I think I have been here long enough to go by name. I GOTTA make a unique name to get here.

I got a book, here, with the spec gravities of all the elements. Used to have to deal with that stuff.

If you got a Goex with, say, 75-15-10 % as the formula, it will weigh this much. That is supposed to be Goex. It will weigh 100 grs per 100 grs by volume. It is THE standard.

If yuou go with Swiss, which might go a percent lower here and a % higher there, may be faster burning. It won't weigh 100 grs per 100 grs BP volume. Somewhere close but no cigar.

I would wager that any batch of real BP, Goex, which we use as a standard, will be 100 grs per 100 grs volume till the horn blows.

You get a measured and weighed amount, convert it to a volume, as per a "measurer", and you can pour all the charges you want with not a tiny bit of fear.

And, any other powder that says to measure by VOLUME, the same "measurer" will do the job, barring 777 that says to reduce loads by 15 %.

APP, I am still on the sidelines, why is it such a wimp with an equivalent load? Just a sick powder? Shouldn't be used? I don't like it, it stinks like hell, and is really weak, as Mec's book says. mebbe 400 fps slower than BP, for the same volume.

Cheers,

George

 

[Manyirons]

George! Without a trace of partisanship, i would say you are right! Your previous posting per this subject in conjunction with cold miserable day gave impetus to give 'er a whirl and see what the precision machines read out.

Curiousity you might say, i have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time and money pursuing accuracy in the field of black powder and is another issue (Specific gravity and measuring) to deal with.

Per APP, i agree this material such a worthless substitute what i DID have on hand i gave away to someone i have no regard for!

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Duncan!

You left out adulation of the masses and being legendary sex symbol!

I don't THINK SO,
'Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the most handsome of them all ........and why am I?'

Sun, that's that big orange thing that appears in the sky during the day, is shining and they are out pruning the vines ready for this years growth. Still cold but clear - no snow!
Duncan

 

[mec]

"Ain't the Dupont from 40 years ago, but then NOTHING is or has been since Dupont burned down..."

Had the last part of a can of Dupon 3f and compared it to new Goex. Of course, there are too many variables for a direct comparison but,interesting anway.

 

[gmatov]

Mec,

I have a reference, which I would have to find, that says they tried powder 100 years old stored properly that gave the same results as brand spankin' new Goex, ie, real BP, 75-15-10. And other powders were 66 2/3 and whatever and whatever, am going to bed, will look tomorrow.

The thing is, powder is NOT powder, world wide. In the US, Goex is it, it is the standard. Whatever they make is the standard and I think they use the same formulary as much as they can. It WILL have as close to the combustible character this year as it had 5 years ago. It is possible that they make powders that are + or - 1/2 percentage of any of the 3 components, and that I would not be afraid to shoot.

In Europe, Goex might be a "Foreign powder" that they have a conversion chart for, ask Duncan.

Our powders, be they Black or Smokeless, have to be as close to the last batch as possible, or they have to put an insert in or on the container to tell you you should increase or decrease the load this or that much. Insurance and liability, again.

And, you know, they do change the formulation, or the 1975 reloading manual would be good forever. Hell, all of mine are from pre-1975, except my RCBS electronic version, and it is one pain in the ass to access..

Cheers,

George

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Mec,

In Europe, Goex might be a "Foreign powder" that they have a conversion chart for, ask Duncan.

Cheers,

George

Don't have any answers at the moment George but will do some research and get back to you.
Duncan

 

[gmatov]

Duncan, thanks.

Why I mention that is, if those of you who have bought or read MEC's book look at his results shooting all the percussion pistols, in almost all instances the same load, and he does not say grains/volume for Swiss, but the same load of Swiss gives higher velocity than Goex. I don't know if MEC weighed his Swiss. Be interesting to see if they weigh the same per volume. If they use more KNO3, it would probably be denser, weigh more for Swiss per given volume. Have to scroll up to OP and see what he said.

The subs, he does say grains/volume, and those vary in velocity, sometimes 777 is faster, sometimes slower, same with Pyrodex P, and APP is always slower, by 400 feet per second for 1000 fps Goex load. That is one sick powder. And it stinks, to my mind.

So, if Swiss is about 10 to 15% faster, it could be 20 to 25% more potent. (Law of diminishing returns.)

Just did go up to check, ManyIrons says they weigh out differently. MI, what was the order of density? The Swiss the heaviest of the lot?

Cheers,

George

 

[mec]

What I do is check my flask or measure spouts or settings with either goex or swiss by filling them and pouring them into a powder scale. I have found that the charges of 3fg are within tenths of a grain of the nominal weight for a 28 grain and 22 grain flask spout and the same for one of those adjustible "micrometer" measures. With goex or swiss, 28 grains in actual weight is the same as a 28 grain /Volume equivalent. The practical accuracy of throwing the black powder from a measure is the same as weighing each charge individually since black powder is not very sensitive to small variations in the actual charge.

When I use a substitute The charge takes up the same space (volume) as a weighed charge of black powder but it weights something else. This is not important. If I use a 28 or 30 or 35 grain black powder graduated measure but fill it with pyrodex I will have been following the Hodgdon's recommended procedure for using pyrodex. It does not matter what the pyrodex Weighs. Some manufacturers have published equivalency formulae or charts( I believe even Hodgons in one older hanbook!) but Hodgdons has warned specifically against this because one lot of substitute powder may have a different weight than the next.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Don't have any answers at the moment George but will do some research and get back to you.
Duncan

OK. Check these sites out, they may be of interest or you may be able to e.mail a question on them. I think it is better for you guys to ask as I am a novice at BP.

www.chasse-tir.com
www.schetzenpowder.com
www.black-powder.co.uk

I put in a search for European Standard Black Powder and got some stupid site about face make-up!!

One of the best powders here is Bourdaine but I can't find a website for them.

Anyroadup as we say in Yorkshire ( where I come from ) these sites are a start.
Duncan

 

[gmatov]

MEC,

Thanks, I was sure that was what you were saying, BP is X grs by weight which is X volume, because BP is the standard we are trying to emulate. You can weigh the subs all you want, it won't be any different in volume, generally, except maybe lot to lot, and then a grain or so from the same volume of BP.

If I'm confusing anyone, without being snotty, I mean set your measure for what would be a weighed 30 gr charge of BP. Weigh out your sub (you might have to go to the charts for this) for the equivalent weight in Sub powder. Pour it into your already set BP measure, it should be within error distance of filled, and that might be just the difference in settling. Close as dammit.

Here's a very interesting site, by a retiree Swiss, a "handgonne" shooter, who was (is, I guess I should say) a chemist. Scroll to the bottom of this page and read the bar chart. It shows that Swiss has a good bit more energy than Goex.

So that leaves Duncan free to follow other threads, doesn't have to do any more digging. Thanks, Duncan, for the links, will read them soon as I am done with what few new posts are here.

The link: http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/charcoal.html

 

[Duncaninfrance]

MEC,

Here's a very interesting site, by a retiree Swiss, a "handgonne" shooter, who was (is, I guess I should say) a chemist. Scroll to the bottom of this page and read the bar chart. It shows that Swiss has a good bit more energy than Goex.

So that leaves Duncan free to follow other threads, doesn't have to do any more digging. Thanks, Duncan, for the links, will read them soon as I am done with what few new posts are here.

The link: http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/charcoal.html

I will check it out today. In the mean time I have 2 bits of info. Firstly the only 'standard' I can come across is the UN Numbers for BP. UN0027 & UN2008. The only other is the granular spec which is the Fg-FFFg but no powder is set a s the so called 'control'

One site that you may like to look at is at www.ribbands.co.uk/index.html It's not about BP shooting but there is lots of info available on explosives.

Duncan
BANG!.....War, I must write my memoires!! " So I said to Ike...........