Weight by Volume

[BowerR64]

I got a little powder scale for christmas from my brother. Last few times i got out to shoot all my charges were by weight.

I decided on a couple shells for my charge and a couple for my filler.

When weighing using a level scoop my charges wernt always the same i figured i could get them a little closer using a scale.

I noticed that all the powders weigh different but real black powder is more true per volume.

First i measured water in the 2 common shells i use .45ACP and .40S&W the .45 is as the charts show 26g the .40 S&W 20g

Powders:

Goex 3F .45ACP = 26g
Goex 3F .40 S&W = 20g

Swiss 3F .45ACP = 26g
Swiss 3F .40S&W = 20g

pyrodex 3F .45ACP = 20g
Pyrodex 3F .40S&W = 15g

T7 3F .45ACP = 21g
T7 3F .40S&W = 16g

 

[Bibbyman]

Interesting study.

I'm getting back into black powder shooting again. Over many years I've shot everything but shotgun with black powder. Recently I've been loading 12 guage hulls with Goex FFg and used up my old stock. I have some Pyrodex RS that I'm now using up. I'm using the same volume as I did with Goex.

I'm wondering about the proper compression of Pyrodex vs real black. Is it softer? Will it compress more?

 

[Crawdad1]

Bower, interesting study. What type of powder are you using and at what charge in your most accurate revolver?

 

[Don McDowell]

Black powder is not supposed to be true by "volume" it is intended to be weighed in grains, or drams.
It's the substitutes that were designed to be used per "volume" of a blackpowder measure. The subs have always been lighter, and when Hodgons first took over Pyrodex they used to supply a chart showing how many grains by weight it would take to replace the same charge of black. The other subs that followed along have all been on the same line.

 

[Bibbyman]

I've always loaded black powder with flask or dippers. Lee lists weight by dipper in their chart. I never bothered to actually weigh the powder as I've never ran it through a powder measure.

 

[EljaySL]

All is as intended. Ideally yes, you would measure black powder by weight but it's just not practical in the field. So as a practical matter everybody measures by volume calibrated back to weight grains, and it's good enough for most purposes.

Then when pyrodex came out they knew that people had all of these volume measures in gains and so they adjusted their product to match the "volume grains" but didn't worry about the weight.

With 777 they took the same basic approach. It's a little more powerful by volume but you can use the same measures and everything's OK, you just should be a little aware of that when you get near max load.

If for some reason you need to have a more precise than normal load and you have access to a scale and time you would of course weigh it. And as a practical matter you would take a volume measured load that works well in your application and then weight it and then just standardize on that. After all, even if you're using real black the 25gr setting on your measure might be off a bit, or it might be for another brand or granulation.

 

[Don McDowell]

Most of the brass adjustable powder measures I've owned throw really close to the grain setting when using 2f black powder.
Pyrodex comes out lighter than blackpowder because of the chemical they treat it with to get past the "explosive" definition. That same treatment is also what makes it more corrosive than blackpowder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I've always loaded black powder with flask or dippers. Lee lists weight by dipper in their chart. I never bothered to actually weigh the powder as I've never ran it through a powder measure.

Howdy

I have found the weights listed on the sliding chart that Lee issues with their dipper set to not be very accurate. First off, not all Black Powder weighs the same. It is not like Smokeless, where you buy a can of Unique and you know lot to lot that X number of grains will provide a very consistent result. Powder companies go to great lengths to make sure that year to year, and lot to lot their Smokeless powders give very consistent results, mostly to limit their liability.

It is not the same story with Black Powder. Different manufacturers use slightly different techniques in making their powders. Some use different types of charcoal, some polish the grains different amounts. For Lee to flat out state that the weight of so many CCs of FFg Black Powder is so many grains just does not hold true. For instance, the Lee chart says that 2.2CC of FFg weighs 32.4 grains.

Most of my use of Black Powder is for loading metallic cartridges, not C&B revolvers. When I first started loading BP into cartridges I used the standard Lee dippers. For any given cartridge and bullet weight I chose the dipper that would give me about 1/16" - 1/8" of compression once the bullet was seated. As a reference I started keeping a chart of what the actual grain weights were for various brands and granulations of the charges I used most often. I finally got around to putting the chart in spreadsheet form and I have posted a screen capture of the spread sheet here. You can compare Lee's data to my data in my spreadsheet.

Note, this chart is for informational use only, I accept no responsibility for how it might be used. In addition, Black Powder will vary in weight from year to year and from lot to lot. So if you weigh some charges, your results may be different.

The data about Elephant powder is pretty old now, Elephant has not been made for quite a few years. The Schuetzen data is the newest, as that is the powder I use most of the time these days. Sorry the FFFg data is so sketchy, I changed over to FFg for all my BP loading quite a few years ago.




I no longer dip the powder with Lee dippers, I have a Black Powder measure but I do keep the charges it throws the same as when I was using the dippers. The charges I use most often these days are 1.3 CC of FFg for 44 Russian, 1.9 CC of FFg For 45 Schofield, 2.2CC of FFg for 44-40 and 45 Colt, and 4.3CC of FFg for 12 Gauge shotgun.

Of course, for normal use with a C&B revolver where one is charging the chambers in the field with a flask and powder measure like this, the Lee data is more than sufficient.

 

[BowerR64]

Bower, interesting study. What type of powder are you using and at what charge in your most accurate revolver?

Its hard to say im all over the place with powders, i havnt found one i really like yet.

When i think ive found something that works good i try something else and then im undecided again.

I think T7 2F with the 45ACP shell ive been the most accurate with consistantly.

My best group i shot at 15Y with that brass frame buffalo i cut the barrel down on i put 5 in a 2" group with 1 flyer. I used the .40 S&W shell with T7 3F and a 380 shell full of COW i did that once with the 3F

I think immore consistant with 2F because its more forgiving on how it packs or something?

 

[BowerR64]

Black powder is not supposed to be true by "volume" it is intended to be weighed in grains, or drams.
It's the substitutes that were designed to be used per "volume" of a blackpowder measure. The subs have always been lighter, and when Hodgons first took over Pyrodex they used to supply a chart showing how many grains by weight it would take to replace the same charge of black. The other subs that followed along have all been on the same line.

The reason i said that is i got a flask with a starter kit when i got my brass 1851. The flask has a spout on it that says 24g

I went threw all my powders and i could never get 24g from it till i tried the black powders. I havnt tried the 2Fs yet i have a few 2Fs i should try them next.

so the volume of the spout with 3F black powder is 24g by weight? this is what started all this.

 

[Don McDowell]

The flask spout on a pistol measure would be regulated for 3f black. As mentioned before there will likely be weight differences between brands and sometimes even lots, but yes they should have built that spout to drop 24 grs by weight of 3f blackpowder. The substitutes will take up the same volume, but by their nature and composition will weigh less (as much as 10%) than the real stuff.

 

[TheRodDoc]

No. It's not weight. It's always volume.

Black powder charges are always listed in volume. All volume measures are sized by the weight of water they will hold.

Your 24 gr. spout will hold about 24gr. in weight of water. Not nesesarly 24 grains in weight of powder.

Black powders do not all weight the same. The purpose of the volume measure is to fill a chamber or case to a certian level with powder. And to be able to write it down so others can do the same no matter what kind of black powder they use.

So if I tell you I used 30 grs. of my black powder to fill a 45 case to where the bullet just sits on the powder when seated at the proper depth,
You can also use that volume measurement to do the same no mater what brand or lot of powder you use. The Grain size makes no difference as long as it's told.

 

[Don McDowell]

Water won't go off in a rifle ,,,, or pistol, no need to measure it.
Check out way back in the 1870's and see what folks that had only blackpowder to use had to say about charges... Sharps even spent a full page in one of their catalogs telling how to convert the readings from an apothecary scale to grains weight in powder. Remington explained the difference in point of impact especially at long range even a small variation in charge weight could make. And to follow up more recent times, the Lyman 55 powder measure instructions tell how to use the markings on the slide to get the exact grains weight of powder charge.
Volume wasn't much of a concern until Pyrodex came along.. Since then there's been no end to the confusion.

 

[[email protected]]

I have been using the actual weight for over 50 yrs. When the amount of powder
you use is brought up at Friendship it is understood that you are talking about
the actual weight. So when someone says they are using 50 grs, you don't have
to wonder if that is by volume, weight or otherwise . They mean 50 grs weight
as shown on a scale. When I tell you I use 20 grs Swiss FFF I mean by weight.
Los less confusing this way. Some people take something so simple and over
think it and try to make something hard out of it.

 

[BowerR64]

I already know its more accurate to get the same charge this way over volume. I tried over and over to scoop up some powder and level it and i got amounts +/- 2-3 grains this is just with 3F

 

[Noz]

I shall bite my tongue and go away.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you load Smokeless you are using a modern powder measure that is designed to portion out an exact amount of powder by volume. But for the purpose of standardization, and because small charges of Smokeless Powder, like 4 or 5 grains, can be better categorized by weight, Smokeless charges are always specified by weight. Anybody who has been loading Smokeless for very long knows that with Smokeless powder the measure never reproduces the charge exactly every time. With flake powders like Unique I consider +/-.2 grains about as good as my RCBS or Hornady powder measure will do.

Black Powder is much more forgiving. A couple of grains here or there does not matter so much when you are talking about 30 or 40 grains in a charge. For most purposes it just does not matter, 2 or 3 grains is not significant enough in a revolver to seriously impact accuracy.

For really serious BPCR shooters, shooting the big cartridges like 45-70, 45-90, 45-110 or 45-120, many of them do weigh their charges right down to the .1 grain level. But they are shooting at targets 300 or 400 or even more yards away, and at those distances it does matter. However those guys not only weigh their charges, they also requalify their loads whenever they start using powder from a new lot.

As I said earlier, with most of my Black Powder cartridges I use an internationally recognized standard, the Cubic Centimeter (or Milliliter for those who are a bit more up to date) when I note down my loads, and I usually put in parentheses, how many grains the charge weighs, but I also specify which brand of powder and granulation I am using.

When I shoot C&B I use a measure like in the photo I posted earlier and I do not worry about exactly how many grains I am loading. I usually set it at the 30 grain mark, pour in the powder, swivel the nozzle over to level the charge and dump it in the chambers. No big deal.

 

[Don McDowell]

Driftwood? If it doesn't matter, then why in the world did you take the time to make the chart you posted?
If it didn't matter why would they even bother putting numbers on an adjustable measure, or a flask spout?

 

[Wayne-O]

I shall bite my tongue and go away.

Me also.

I will say this though, it is very amusing.

 

[[email protected]]

I use a balanced load, so it don't effect me.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

You know, sometimes I wonder why I even bother to post things on this forum. Sometimes all I get is heartburn.

I posted the data I posted because I like to use it as a reference. I thought maybe some others would be interested in it too.

When you look at old data, for instance 45 Colt or 44-40, the most common data you will find is 40 grains of Black Powder. Seldom does it go any further than that. As I already said, not all powder weighs the same. Furthermore, you can't stuff 40 grains of anything into modern solid head cases because the internal capacity is not what it used to be with the old Balloon Head cases. As I also stated, when I load cartridges like 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40, I like to put in enough powder that the powder is compressed by between 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. That amount of compression gives good results. So all I did was determine which Lee dipper would give me the amount of compression I wanted when loading these cartridges. Then I weighed the charges, simply as a reference, nothing more. The results are in the spread sheet.

When somebody asks me what is my Black Powder load for any of the above cartridges, I have the information at hand. Most folks want to know how many grains. As I have said, just stating the weight is not the entire story because different powders weigh different amounts.

That's all I meant to say, don't read more into it than that.

The reason the numbers are on an adjustable powder measure is for a rough guide, nothing more. At some point in the factory where those measures were made, somebody put various known grain weights of powder into them, and then they scribed the numbers onto them. Then they made a bazillion of them. Exactly what powder was it, and what granulation? Nobody has any idea. Just like nobody knows what brand of powder and granulation Lee used for the data on their slide rule that comes with their dipper set.

For most applications, and what we seem to talk about most here is Cap & Ball revolvers, if you set your adjustable measure at the 30 grain hash mark and pour in enough of Brand XYZ powder to fill the measure, it doesn't make a hill of beans of difference.

On the other hand, if you want to milk the most repeatable performance out of a long range caliber, weighing charges of a specific brand, granulation, and lot # is a good idea.

That's all I was trying to say.

Don't read any more into it than that.

Sheeesh!

 

[BowerR64]

I use a balanced load, so it don't effect me.

What is a balanced load?

 

[BowerR64]

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont know anything about smokeless and i havnt put alot of time into blackpowder. That may all be true for black powder but tripple 7 seems different.

I found that with tripple 7 it even matters how hard you pack it! I tried sloppy packs and i got sloppy results.

You guys tell me the whole fun of cap and ball shooting is experimentation and thats what im doing.

 

[Don McDowell]

Bower if you run loads over a chronograph you will find that 2-3 grs weight difference in a blackpowder charge can make about a 5 fps difference. That will show up on the target quicker with lighter charges and lower velocity than the higher.
While knowing the exact measurement of a given powder charge may not be necessary (altho a solid number is a handy reference mark to return to) consistency is. Dippers are nice for fast charging, but I think you'll find that over time with your charges and accuracy will get better using either the flask , or a powder horn and adjustable measure.

 

[Armored farmer]

Is that balanced by weight or volume??