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Well armed NYPD = tourist attractions

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Enough debate on whether an M4 can be had in semi-auto only.

Maybe the reporter was told wrongly that it is an M4 or maybe the reporter mixed up the facts.

It could be that the rifle she was referring to really is a semi-auto rifle in a M4 type configuration.
 
As a police officer you're expected to be civil and friendly to the citizenry - especially when working public events etc. It's my understanding that NYC depends on and values the tourist trade. When bad things happen to tourists in the Big Apple it can make headlines across the country. Remember the kid from Utah who was stabbed in the chest when he tried to protect his mother from muggers in the subway? It happened in the late eighties/early ninties. That event made the cover of Time magazine. So I'm sure those officers have been directed to be nice to the tourists. If not ordered you can bet that it's been strongly implied that they will be friendly and approachable. Can you imagine what would happen if the press reported that all those heavily armed officers were confiscating cameras from the tourists and refusing to pose for photos? Like it or not those officers are acting as PR as well as security. It's the nature of the profession. Something they don't talk about in the movies. I'm not going to venture into the debate about the M-4 carbines. They look cool though. I especially like the photo of the cop with the massive arms. Notice that he has his sleeves rolled up so that his guns stand out.


I did not say that I think cops should confiscate cameras and be unpleasant or jerks about it; just that they are supposed to be doing a job and that job is NOT modeling.

And yeah, that cop has MASSIVE arms! :what:
 
maybe they're just using a common name like many people calling any 1911 type pistol of Colt's trademarked Commander size a Commander.
Pat if you read my entire post you will see that I am acknowledging the knock off aspect. That's why I left the word type in the url header and why I used the word type in conjunction with 1911
Prople use common names for everyday items, not everyone is at the product developement level.
 
Being friendly to the yokels and citizens is absolutely part of the job of a police officer, and if you let someone get close enough to have a conversation, the danger doesn't increase if they're close enough to pose for a picture. I don't see the harm.

The officer pictured does indeed have a firm grasp of the principles of bodybuilding. . . . think what those arms would look like if he didn't have three feet of armor and equipment bulging on his torso. :uhoh:

If you're going to snicker about his sights, I do believe I'd wait until you got home.
 
In case anyone is still cares about this semantic spat.

Mr. Rogers, it appears you're in the gun business, and I guess you have your way of using the terminology in your line of work. Just based on my admittedly desultory reading and on infantry experience with the M16, M4, M2, M240 and M249, "machine gun" does not mean simply "firearm capable of automatic or burst fire." That is how CNN reporters generally define it (not Ms. Moos, apparently) but we don't expect them to have much knowledge of the subject.

I made the comment about the ATFE, because you mentioned my hypothetical arrest for having an automatic weapon. I thought perhaps you were using a legal definition.

Perhaps some of us define the word more in terms of a gun's role and capabilities. That is, if a full-auto Glock pistol (submachine gun or machine pistol) and an M2 are both machine guns, then the term seems rather inexact. A true machine gun like the 240 or 60 fires a true rifle cartridge, and has corresponding range. I don't know if there is any agreement on the line between pistol or carbine cartridges and rifle rounds, but in the view of many, the M249 Light Machine Gun is not a machine gun at all because it fires the smallish 5.56. Such people, and I guess I'm one of them, also refer to M16's and AK-47's as assault carbines. I didn't invent this "genre" - it's already in the literature.
 
I was at Kenedy Space Center a year ago and the entrance gates were patrolled by base police with MP5s. Yes, I took a picture.

How many people realize how miserable it must be to stand around in NYC heat and humidity wearing all that? I'd have to put a spigot in my boots to drain the sweat.
 
Joab- Understood!

The reason that the errornet is such a poor place to gather viable information is because a great many people make statements that are inaccurate, incomplete or false, and a greater number of people repeat it until others believe it is fact.

Fistful- Mr Rogers was my Dad. My name is Pat.
There is no spat that i am aware of- just a disagreement.
Having spent most of my life (i'd say adult life but i'm not sure i've actually reached puberty yet...) as a CWO of Marines, cop (Sgt, NYPD ret) or in an OGA, i feel comfortable in my statements.

I have a pretty fair understanding of the military definition of MG, as well as having personal experience in arresting people in possession of the same. I know what my dictionary says; i know what my reference material says.

I know what it is that i have to be specific about when i write reqs or proposals.
So, i'll stick with what i know.
 
Well, returning to the orginal thread topic, it is a shame that sheeple are so afraid of guns, so unfamiliar with their use, so ignorant of their proper role in a free society, and so reverential of LE as their protectors that they treat them like a tourist attraction.
 
Look, Pat!

You say we're having a disagreement, but somehow we're not having a spat?! Obviously, a spat is defined as... Just kidding.

After reading your last post it occurs to me that I couldn't know whether Pat was a Mr. or Ms. Doh! Impressive list of service, there, Pat, except that I don't know what an OGA is. Anyhoo, I guess we've no need to go on with this, as the horse is not merely dead, but in an Elmer's bottle by now. I guess I've read too much Cooper or something, makes me all curmudgeonly about them new-fangled assault rifles and their teeny-weeny cartridges.

Take it easy, and keep it on semi.
 
There is something terribly wrong going on in NYC. Recently Mayor Bloomberg said "no one needs a gun" in NYC. Did he misspeak? :rolleyes:

Actually, I think I would be more comfortable with a heavier calibler weapon than 5.56mm M4 or whatever. I not too sure how effective they would be trying to stop a truck bomber. Something in 7.62mm might be more appropriate. Maybe an M14/M1A with AP ammo.
 
Mr. Rogers, it appears you're in the gun business, and I guess you have your way of using the terminology in your line of work.
Heh. When Pat came aboard as Staff on TheFiringLine.com, we felt like we actually had some serious creds.

I, too, defer to his judgement and knowledge on such issues.


--MattHeadedOutToTheGymNowWithHeadBowedInHumilityG
 
Well, returning to the orginal thread topic, it is a shame that sheeple are so afraid of guns, so unfamiliar with their use, so ignorant of their proper role in a free society, and so reverential of LE as their protectors that they treat them like a tourist attraction.
The psychology of this is interesting to me. It's remarkable that when people realize that civilization is a thin veneer that must be actively protected from the bad guys, those "evil black guns that only exist to kill as many people as possible without reloading" blah blah blah, are suddenly perceived, even by "sheeple," as PROTECTORS OF INNOCENT LIFE. (And that's even a full-auto.) Even though the gun is in a police officer's hands and all that, the attitude toward the GUN has undergone something of a paradigm shift.

It's too bad that those people are stuck in NYC; if they moved someplace free, they could OWN a gun that looks like that...:)

benEzra (happy EBR owner in the mostly free state of NC)
 
Yup, ben. I couldn't agree more. The kicker is that, aside from the select fire control group, the AR I am building will most likely be superior to what those LEOs in NYC are carrying now. That would shock most Nu Yawkers.
 
In Reality

which I know is an unusual place to some, we are actually starting to catch up to the rest of the world. In South and Central America and big chunks of Asia and Europe battle weapons on the street are not unusual if not the norm. Fly thru Heathrow and see if Bobbies are'nt armed.

Anybody been to Russia lately (the real Russia, not someplace like Chechnya)? I have'nt but I've never heard or seen their police armed with long-guns, except for their version of SWAT. It'd be kinda weird if Us and Them were the last to routinely up-gun the cops.
 
California Highway Patrol and local Police departments have had AR-15's in their cars since the infamous 1997 Hollywood bank robbery.

Even the P.D. in my city (West Covina, pop. 105,000) has an AR-15 and a 12-gauge in each cruiser. There must be 60-70 cruisers total.

Seems it takes a tragedy to persuede law enforcement to take measures they should have taken from the beginning, although no AR-15 is going to halt an airplane's movement.

Various Southern California Police departments send officers to my local gun range to practice with their AR's, I hear them from time to time. Usually it's the Long Beach P.D. (I don't know why they go there so often, there are closer and better ranges to Long Beach than the one I go to in Azusa).
 
when I was in the Army in the 70's, the M16 I carried was single fire or full auto. Now it's a 3 shot burst. when did this change happen? and why not a 2 shot burst, since you'd have a double tap, and not waste the 3rd shot? as a side note, I was on a tank for awhile as the gunner, we were all supposed to have grease gun in addition to our .45's, but we never actually saw them.
______________
which I know is an unusual place to some, we are actually starting to catch up to the rest of the world. In South and Central America and big chunks of Asia and Europe battle weapons on the street are not unusual if not the norm. Fly thru Heathrow and see if Bobbies are'nt armed.

---------
you're right - the Germans had guys with sub guns patrolling the airports back in the 70's. even the cops had them in their patrol cars then. I was helped by a German cop in getting my car unstuck from a snow bank after skidding on the autobahn, and when he got a shovel from the trunk, they had some sort of sub gun in there with about 6 mags.
 
sendec - regarding police weapons in Russia. I emigrated from Russia back in 96, but visited Moscow a couple years ago. It was/is pretty normal for policemen on patrol (not just "SWAT" types) to carry AKs, often AKS-74U. Of course, that started only post-USSR collapse (early 90s), with all the unrest and crime wave it brought. Before that, you would not see any AKs on the streets, ever. Even pistols (Makarovs) where only carried in those old fashioned military holsters that cover the whole pistol.

Alex.
 
which I know is an unusual place to some, we are actually starting to catch up to the rest of the world.

I know the idea you were trying to convey, sendec, but I'm not sure "catch up" was the best way to put it.

Security and Freedom are inversely proportional.
 
Waht exactly is the point of these cops having rifles other than to drum up bush's security alert to make him get re-elected? I mean what could they do? Use their guns to reduce a bomb blast?
 
They're at the higher-threat areas. A truck tries to run the barricades, and a rifle would be better than a pistol. A man with a gun tries to storm the lobby of the UN or a Fed Reserve bank, and a rifle is better than a pistol.

A man wearing an explosive vest with a deotonator in his hand goes running up the steps, and a rifle is far better than a pistol.

Snipers from the rooftops demand a rifle to respond effectively.

Multiple BG's assaulting a building would indicate a faster-acquiring, more accurate, more powerful weapon than a pistol.


Note that they are wearing their rifles for a faster deployment. They are not simply parking a tac cop on every corner, either.


But, looking at it with utterly honest eyes, I have to admit that one of the main roles they're playing is window dressing. Don't knock window dressing. It makes a difference. In this case, seeing Very Serious Men (TM) decked out in tac gear with readied carbines/assault rifles at points of interest absolutely impresses many with the point that threats are taken seriously. You know, if I was brass for NYC Emergency Services, I'd be wiling to spend the man hours on just that duty, as well. 3 years ago, they received the most overt attack against their city. A month later, a more subtle attack against our country (anthrax). NYC might just have the right to be a little bit paranoid.

Thumper put it very well:
Security and Freedom are inversely proportional.
True.

As a rule, I'm NOT real happy to see beat cops walking around with military rifles or subguns slung. (Though I encourage them to train with and carry rifles in their cruisers.) But these particular cops have very specific rather boring --while highly serious-- duties. Their being more heavily armed than a beat cop and wearing a different uniform actually makes it clear that their role is different.
 
Alex,

Thanks for the info. I had read some articles in the 80's shortly after the collapse and breakup (or whatever the proper term is, I hate to sound rude) about some of the changes that were having to take place due to the higher visibility of Russian organized crime. One of the most interesting things I saw was that Ford Crown Vic interceptors were being shipped to Moscow because the police did'nt have cars that would keep up with the bad guys. Thanks again.

As for rifles on the street, why not? WE want to open carry, but don't want the cops to?;)
Seriously, if you need a gun, you need a rifle. Like Clint Smith said (I think it was him or John Farnam), your pistol is for fighting your way to the rifle you should have had in the first place. A long gun in the ride is of no use if you are standing on the street 3 blocks away.

We, meaning the collective we, cops and non-cops, only carry pistols because we are too lazy or wont accept the inconvenience of carrying a rifle.
 
Bill said:
when I was in the Army in the 70's, the M16 I carried was single fire or full auto. Now it's a 3 shot burst. when did this change happen?

3 round burst came with the M16A2
 
what terrorist is going to have a truck with "my bomb truck" painted on the side - with a loud speaker saying "come on guys, want to stop me with your rifles?"
 
what terrorist is going to have a truck with "my bomb truck" painted on the side - with a loud speaker saying "come on guys, want to stop me with your rifles?"

A crazy James Bond bad guy? :evil:

I think once the truck is on the sidewalk, rolling along at a good clip toward a national monument, one might consider it a threat.
 
I think once the truck is on the sidewalk, rolling along at a good clip toward a national monument, one might consider it a threat.
Oh he could quietly park et and let it detonate whilst the cops are leaning against it eating their donuts.
 
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