Western Culture Explained

[ID_shooting]

The thread that got this topic started was locked and I was not able to explain this out very well. Hopefully, this one won't get out of hand. If it does, I will ask it to be locked.

Western Culture is more than just the right of a property owner putting up No Trespassing/No Hunting signs. It is about treating your neighbors as well, neighbors. Out here in "good ole boy country," elitist and a “this is mine you stay away” greedy attitude are considered extremely rude. Yes a land owner has the right to do what ever he wishes on his land, including barring access if he wishes. No one will ever argue that. But putting up signs and gates to remind the locals that the new owner locked his property is a slap in the face to us. Ask people to stay off and word will get around quickly enough and people will stay off. Confronting people with loaded arms will get you forever shunned as a member of the community.

You see, out here we waive to each other, have conversations with complete strangers in the diner, invite people we just met and don’t know into our duck blind down by the river, help farmer Joe get his crop in if he is running behind, stop and assist strangers with flat tires and will let anyone walk a pheasant run with us. Live is just too short to be so uptight. It isn’t about letting people do what ever they want to your stuff, it is about common courtesy and the Golden Rule.

When people move into our culture and buy up fields we all have hunted for 50 years and immediately post them then run us off when we come up to the door to ask for permission we are truly offended. You may be in the right legally, but you can still offend people.

No one in the west will advocate cutting fences, pulling gates or destroying property. If this is happening, let the local sheriff know. Chances are he can find out quickly who it was. But setting traps that get people hurt or forcing people out with the threat of violence will bring on backwoods retaliation.

Anyone wish to add to that?

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Attitudes may vary by geography but down here in NW Florida if you don't fence and post your unattended property you run the risk of it collecting peoples old sofas and washing machines or folks running their 4-wheelers over your planted pine seedlings. The bigger perceived slap in the face is by trespassers who trash than by folks who post their land.

I can agree with you that is a shame that times have changed and good folks get painted with a broad brush.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Good fences = good neighbors. Shunning people for preferring privacy is an outgrowth of socialist mentality. It says a lot -- negatively -- about a culture where enjoyment of proprty rights depends on the accommpdating neighbors and strangers alike.

I am all for cooperation between willing people...but being a hermit or simply unsociable should not cause ostracism.

 

[ID_shooting]

Oleg, it is not socialist at all. Like I said, if somone wishes for thier property to be left alone, they just need to let people know in a polite manner and it will be left alone. If it isn't, nobody protects the offenders should the sherriff come for them.

I may not be the best at conveying this, hopefully somone else can help out here.

Just like we usually leave the car doors unlocked, give the neighbors a cup of suger if they ask, and live life nice and slow. I don't requier that everyone open and share, I just know the good folks around here will.

Now, one thing I see different is that we don't trash other people places. We pick up our shells, close gates behind us, don't harras the livestock, and will leave a couple of birds on the doorstep on our way out. Make sence at all?

 

[hso]

This is much more a social or hunting issue than a General. You'd probably get a much better discussion in Hunting.

 

[MDMadrid]

ID SHOOTER: You have to look at the differences of "cultures" from out in the West to the East. I grew up in Wy. and I know the kind of culture that you are expressing in your thread. Now I live in SC and I am learning this culture. People act and think differently based on when and where they are raised. I put up signs and fences on my property in order to protect myself, not to shun the nieghbors. That is just the way they are...times have changed.

 

[Byron Quick]

Oleg,

I don't think that is quite the point he's making. If I understand him correctly his scenario is this:

A new owner of property that your community has been able to hunt on for generations. A couple of guys drive up to his house, ring the doorbell, and attempt to ask permission to hunt on the property. The new property owner opens the door, rifle in hand, and runs them off of his property in a completely uncivil and unnecessary manner.

Now, granted, if the new owner listened to my polite request and politely told me no, I would have no complaint. However, after greeting me with a weapon, not listening to my reason for being on his doorstep, and profanely running me off his property=yes, I would shun him. I would not buy from him, sell to him, employ him, work for him, assist him, or spit on him. If he came to the emergency department I work at, I would recuse myself from his case. I would give more assistance to a stray, feral dog than I would to him or his.
Good fences make good neighbors, true. You can be a hermit. No problem. Unsociable? Depends on what you mean by unsociable. If you want to courteously tell me that I don't have permission to hunt your land and to please don't come back in the future-fine. If you want to act like an uncivilized idiot to polite requests, I'll treat you as an uncivilized idiot. Nothing to do with socialistic thinking. Won't use force to coerce you to let folks use your property. Won't try to get the government to pass a law making your property common property. Won't do a single solitary thing for you or to you.

 

[Standing Wolf]

You see, out here we waive to each other, have conversations with complete strangers in the diner, invite people we just met and don’t know into our duck blind down by the river, help farmer Joe get his crop in if he is running behind, stop and assist strangers with flat tires and will let anyone walk a pheasant run with us. Live is just too short to be so uptight. It isn’t about letting people do what ever they want to your stuff, it is about common courtesy and the Golden Rule.

When the time finally arrived for me to leave the People's Republic of California, I didn't look east of Colorado. I grew up in Iowa and Michigan and Wisconsin and Minnesnowta. People in the west today remind me of people when I was a kid in the middle west: generally polite, generally friendly, generally open, generally a good deal less pretentious than people have become along both coasts. I have a hunch it may have something to do with crowding.

 

[XLMiguel]

ID Shooter, you've obviously never lived in a densely populated region full of poorly socialized, opportunistic, protologically challenged people, further aggravated by the 'diversity' of economics, ethnicity, and emmigration (legal and otherwise) . Posting your property is a necessity, and you may also well need to be agressive in enforcing your desire to be left alone. Not everyone respects other's property or consider the notion of 'quiet peace and enjoyment' of one's environ.

I have recently relocated from suburban Washington, DC, to Santa Fe, NM, and I have some appreciation for what you're suggesting, but a lot of what you're saying implies that you're a recognized member of the comunity. I've found SF to be a very friendly place, but even so, I've encountered a bit of 'from here/come here' attitude (at least until they find out you aren't from CA ). I'm with Oleg, good fences=good neighbors, but this doesn't mean you can't be cordial, respectful, kind and sharing (i.e. 'neighborly'), but this also assumes you're living on a two-way street. I've had property in the country where my 'neighbors' lived in the sticks because they didn't like company, were poorly socialized (not even friendly), and just wanted to be left alone, go figure? Different parts of the country have different cultures. JMHO. Cheers.

 

[ID_shooting]

HSO, you are likely correct.

If one of the mods wishes to move this, I would not object.

Byron,

That is one of them. There are many reasons a good person may deny access. Seeds freshly layed, fresh discing and a storm is approaching, had been hunted earlyer and he doesn't want to pressure the game any more for a few days, plus others that can be too numerous to list.

In Idaho there are two ways to post property. NO HUNTING and NO HUNTING WITHOUT PERMISSION. Both mean the same thing, but the later is more polite. The owner may never grant us access, in the back of our mind we know this. But the feeling is that one day he may say yes and therefor we respect him a bit more than the guy who has 6 foot concertina topped fences.

XL,

I spent some tme that way when I was in the Army. Kansas was the closest I found to my desired culture. You are correct that is certianly is a two-way street. Even though I live in town Employment reasons are the only reason) I grew up in a community of about 150 people for 30 miles. We have family property up by Yellowstone. The only fence is around the house to keep the dogs in, the only sign has our name on it so people know how to find us. Other than that, it is open land. See a big buck, ask to get him, I will help you pack him out. That simple.

What gets us is the guy that moves in, fences and agressivly posts, then wants to try to "belong" or moves up to enjoy the "country life" but doesn't get that the local kids may ask to fish his stretch of the river and gets all bent out of shape that they would even ask hm about it.

 

[XLMiguel]

ID - Point taken. Though we live in SF, we have 12 acres a ways south of town were some of the residents keep horses and ride. We may build there at some point, or maybe just keep it as an investment property-

We've met a couple of the nieghbors, introduced ourselves, traded phone #'s, and just sort of chatted for a while/got acquianted, told them they were welcome to ride our lot (it's pretty, sort of hilly, with a nice arroyo), and to please call if they see anything weird or that needs attention (we don't get out there too often). To me, it's part of being a good neighbor and fitting in. I figure as a 'new guy', I need to listen more than talk and get a feel for 'community standards' (we did some due dilligence before we bought, anyway), and they certainly aren't hurting anything just riding around. What I don't want are a bunch of wankers in 4-wheelers tearing up the place, or people dumping stuff (not likely, it is down a few miles of dirt road), I figure if they feel welcome, they'll keep an eye out. Win-win.

 

[Justin]

This is an interesting topic, but not strictly gun-related. I think it's got more of a broad appeal than a topic that should go into the hunting area. Since it has to do with property rights and such, I've moved it to the legal and political forum.

 

[The Guy]

Probably not related, but...

Listen to some James McMurtry sometime. He is the son of Larry McMurtry, author of "Lonesome Dove". Lots of his songs deal with "fly-over" country, both good and bad. When I read the first post, his song "Out Here in the Middle" came to mind.

"Out here in the middle, you can park it on the streeet
step up to the counter, nearly always get a seat
nobody steals, nobody cheats
wish you were here my love"

"out here in the middle, where the center's on the right
the ghost of Williams Jennings Bryant preaches every night
to save the lonely souls by the dash board lights
whish you were here my love, wish you were here"

The song of his called "Chocktaw Bingo" has some good lines too.

"They stopped off in Tuska at that 'Pop's Knife and Gun' place
bought a SKS rifle and a couple full cases of that steel core ammo
with the Berdian primers from some East Bloc country
that no longer needs 'em
and a Desert Eagle, man that's one great big ol' pistol
I mean .50 caliber made by some bad assed Hebrews
and some surplus tracers for that old B.A.R. of Slaton's
soon as it gets dark we're gonna have us a time"

Back to your regularly schedueled thread....

 

[cuchulainn]

It seems that the problem isn't with some guy protecting his property rights, but that he's a snot about it.

This isn't really a property rights question. It's about manners.

 

[JohnBT]

"You see, out here we waive to each other, have conversations with complete strangers in the diner, invite people we just met and don’t know into our duck blind down by the river, help farmer Joe get his crop in if he is running behind, stop and assist strangers with flat tires and will let anyone walk a pheasant run with us."

You'd like Virginia.

John

 

[Biker]

I understand what ID is saying and I agree completely. There is a "Code of the West", so to speak. I see things subtley changing, however, as more Californins flee their home state and move up here bringing their attitudes with them.
Instead of assimilating, they try to force their ways on us 'OGs'. I know when I first moved here about 30 years ago...it was a culture shock for me and I scared the hell out of the farmers in Grace. Having said that, it was maybe the best move I ever made.

Biker

 

[longeyes]

Not Western Culture, Homogenous Western Culture.

But that's changing. New people, new ways. And that was inevitable.

Believe it or not, not ALL Californians want to bring "California Culture" with them and impose it on the innocent, the pure, and the good. These kinds of facile dichotomies aren't going to produce a better future.

Meanwhile, I tell anyone I meet that I'm from Salvation, Kansas, a little town at the edge of the prairie where the lineaments of Good and Evil are in particularly bold relief.

 

[TallPine]

putting up signs and gates to remind the locals that the new owner locked his property is a slap in the face to us

I would tend to agree with you ... except when you find yourself next door to somebody who recruits (willingly/unwillingly?) young people to make obscene movies, routinely has felon-record(RSO) guests who tear around on all the neighbors' land with 4-wheelers and harass livestock, sneak around your house in the early am and late pm hours, and is just generally a whining bitchy SOB on top of everything else.

That's what prompted all the nasty signs on my place, and I'm still trying to decide whether to take some or all of them down since he is now gone, and the property has a new owner.

I routinely hike and ride horseback with permission on many of my neighbors' land, and most of them are welcome to do so on my place (though it is only 40 acres) if they so desired. But two things I won't abide: 1) riding 4-wheelers (I am not running a motorsports park!); and 2) sneaking around near the house - come straight up the drive if you want to visit me.


It is just a matter of old-fashioned Western friendliness - and don't do to other's property what you wouldn't want them to do to yours.

 

[Biker]

Longeyes...

A bit touchy today are we? It wasn't my intention to indict all Californians, just a statement of observation. As a member of the Innocent, Pure and Good Club, I notice these things.

Biker

 

[longeyes]

Do I need to tell the story of how the first time my wife and I went to the Northwest, to a B&B on Lopez Island, some ***** from Oregon noticed my CA license plate and introduced me to the term "Californicator?" I was on my honeymoon trip or I'd have popped him. To me this is ignorant bigotry, not so pure and pretty damn simple.

I know very well what people don't like about "California" but, face it, it's a far bigger, deeper, and insidious phenomenon that is not localized in one state...and never was. California was mostly settled by Midwesterners (my family came from Chicago). This whole California "problem" started, like many things, after the '60s and Gov. Moonbeam.

Yes, I'm from "Kansas;" that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[SiG Lady]

I'm not from California, I'm from San Francisco...

...which is what I tell people just to see how they take it. But it's true. There was a time (way back when) when things were different in Northern California (I can't vouch for Southern California to any degree whatsoever). SFO and Northern California used to be safe, open, gorgeous (still is in many places) and uncontaminated by weirdness. By the way, the REAL weirdness set in for real by the 1970s. The conventional wisdom at the time reflected that the speed freaks from the East Coast came in hard and fast at the time, and things were never the same after that.

Oregon moves more slowly than, say, California, but many of the people here are genuinely good-hearted if you give them about 10 years to get acquainted with you. Yes, there IS a prejudice against Californians, but I try and absorb that as just a fear of ANYONE coming in and figuratively 4-wheeling over what is an otherwise innocent environment. On the other hand, the KKK was very big in Oregon for the longest time....... There is also a surprising prejudice here (in Eugene) against ethnic minorities. Oregon is so insanely progressive in some ways and so stolidly provincial in others. It's own inner confusion is just as bad as California's, I sometimes think. There are times it's hard to deal with :banghead: