What ammo is illegal and what is not?

[JohnKSa]

7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

Courtesy of a single company who, against wise advice from multiple respected sources and contrary to numerous requests, decided to begin selling 7.62x39 pistols.

I agree that the BATF rules are often foolish, but when a company KNOWS in advance what the BATF is going to do and they go ahead and stick it to thousands of gun owners who have 7.62x39 rifles anyway that's pretty foolish too.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html

 

[Patnav]

I remember when they outlawed KTW ammo here in California. I had over 50 rounds of 9mm and .45 ACP KTW that I had purchased at $1 a pop from a gun shop in San Francisco in the early 80's. When I tried to turn it in to the gun shop, they didn't want it and also told me not to surrender it to the cops because they felt the cops would put me on a "List of Gun Nuts." So I just went to another gun shop across The Bay and they happily took the rounds from me. I still had two boxes of Winschester .357 158 gr jacketed "Metal Piercing" (that's what it said on the box) ammo (pointed). When I asked a cop if it was illegal even though it wasn't on the "banned list" he told me just to be on the safe side, he'd gladly take it from me. End of illegal ammo.

 

[doberman]

Ok, I've read this thread and am a bit confused.

Sorry it's getting late.

In short...885/109 62gr .556NATO "green tip" ammo is illegal according to the ATF?

If so, why is it so available to purchase? I don't buy it because it's $$$.
Somebody clear this up for me please.

 

[Zoogster]

In short...885/109 62gr .556NATO "green tip" ammo is illegal according to the ATF?

If so, why is it so available to purchase? I don't buy it because it's $$$.
Somebody clear this up for me please.

No it is specifically exempted by the ATF, even though it would otherwise be illegal according to thier logic. It would be no different than the 7.62x39 ammo without the exemption.

Yet the ATF chose to exempt both it and some .30-06 AP ammo.

So what is legal, illegal, and which rifle calibers are subject to handgun laws is entirely at thier discretion.

They can change thier mind at any time, but as of now that ammo is exempted. Even though it is in fact considered handgun ammo based on thier logic due to AR pistols, and would otherwise be no different than the AK pistols, which they have ruled do make 7.62x39 ammunition subject to the federal ban on handgun ammo.


It does not make sense, don't try to make sense of it. It boils down to ATF discretion. They currently feel like exempting SS109 and M855, so those projectiles do not follow the same ban logic of all the other rifle turned handgun banned projectiles.
Some rifle rounds are handgun rounds based on a logic given by the ATF, unless exempted from that logic by the ATF.

The ATF decides which projectiles are legal and which are not, for rifle and handgun calibers, through thier interpretation of the law. Subject to reinterpretation or removal or granting of exemptions at any time.

 

[ScottG1911]

The way I understand it, on the explosives part, it is legal to manufacture explosives for personal use. you cannot sell them, you must use it relativly immediatly, and cannot transport it (so it must be made and used on location) I.E. Tannerite, 4 non-explosive powders, the user combines to make an explosive. the same concept works on firearms, you can build a rifle or handgun and it's perfectly legal. people dont realize it, but think, it's legal to build fireworks. making the flash powder in fireworks is building a high explosive (Det 18,000fps). you just cant abuse the explosive, no blowing ****e up that you aint supposed too

 

[doberman]

TY Zoo

 

[gyvel]

:

Shooting steel plates of various thickness is kind of interesting with AP ammo.

It's interesting until the jacket somehow defies the laws of physics and (apparently) compresses, then decompresses like an accordion, comes flying straight back at you, misses your right eye by an inch or so and ends up firmly lodged in your buddy's (who was kneeling behind you, looking down the barrel of your Garand) midriff "spare tire" fat ring, coring it like an apple.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I can buy 62 grain SS-109 bullets to load in .223, they are steel core, pretty sure they would be AP bullets. I've got a thousand of'em.

 

[gym]

Super vels, were illegal the exploding kind. They were sold in gun stores in the late mid to late 70's. Had yellow plastic over the jhp, inside was another primer. They were purchased by me in the years prior to the attempt on Our President, and made illegal after. The problem was that no one told us, and there was no internet. This caused an awful lot of problems at the time for lots of folks who bought them legally in gun stores as self defense ammo.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Super vels, are illegal. They were sold in gun stores in the late mid to late 70's.

I don't believe Super Vel's were ever illegal. If I remember right the IRS shut them down for not paying income taxes. Either than or some other type of lawsuit. Can't remember for certain.

I see boxes of the stuff sell to collectors now and then for silly amounts of money, would have to see it in writing before I believe they are illegal. Never seen that anywhere before.

Sure you're not thinking of KTW?

I can buy 62 grain SS-109 bullets to load in .223, they are steel core, pretty sure they would be AP bullets.

SS109 bullets are specifically named as NOT being considered AP.

 

[gym]

Well I had to spend a year and a half in NYC court, in order to get my guns and license back. The only thing that saved me was the original receipt from when and where I bought the pistol and ammo, That proved that when I purchased the ammo, it was legal. I had to get a lawyer and it cost me a couple of thousand dollars "back then" to get everything straightened out. A curious rookie had asked me for my license during an altercation in my lobby. I had nothing to do with it, but he saw my gun print. Long story short they got curious about the ammo and came back and asked me for my pistols. In NYC your license has your guns, "usually only one", "I had two,"serial number, make and model on it".

 

[NukemJim]

Zooggster, in reference to

Of course far less complex rounds like poison rounds using nerve toxins that effect the central nervous system of the target quickly

Could you please specify exactly what kind of poison would give the effect you describe.

Thank you
NukemJim

 

[Dannix]

B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

Why isn't anyone selling bullets that simply do not meet the "constructed entirely" bit? Simply throw in 3% of another suitable element and have a thin copper jacket. Surely there is a market for it considering some of the unusual rounds out there.

 

[Jim Watson]

A jacket is not a loophole, the law specifically calls out "projectile core."

Adding some other "suitable element" probably would not work, either. About any predominantly copper alloy is going to be listed as a brass or bronze, for example. Even if you found some combination that would take it beyond the textbook definition, and it came to the attention of the authorities, you would get to pay the lawyer and expert witnesses to explain it to the judge.

There are some materials not on the list that would give AP performance but have disadvantages like extremely high cost or weird machining requiremements. They would still likely get you thrashed through the legal system at your expense, though.

As to zoogster's magic bullets, the CIA developed the T1 fletchette loaded with E1 shellfish toxin (or was that the other way 'round?) to be fired from a weapon that looked like a target pistol but was probably pneumatic. Said to feel like a mosquito bite to the target and kill in about 10 minutes. Something like a military nerve agent would be faster - the CIA wanted low detectability, not speed - but would still not amount to the stopping power you want in a sidearm.

I don't think you can pack enough high explosive and a fuze into a standard caliber bullet to outweigh the kinetic energy of the projectile itself. Now if you wanted to build something like a .68 paintball full cyclonite or something even hotter...

I believe it was SF author Christopher Anvil who described the XX projectile, explosive and toxic.

 

[zchannel]

I am new to this site but found it because I wanted to research .30-06 AP ammo that a friend wants to sell in CA. I had a 25 year career in the steel business and a dealer many years ago asked me to get some samples of AR Plate, called abrasive resistant plate, used in mining primarily. These are heat treated plates in various BHN's (Brinnell Hardness Numbers) from 200 to 500. T-1 Plate has a 325 BHN but other alloys in it. It is considered armor plate, but is not the hardest out there. 500 BHN was at the time. 44 mag HP penetrated A-36, aka mild steel, at the time but not all the way through 1/2". It left craters the size of the expanded bullet. Nothing happened to the 360 or 500 BHN plates. They didn't test with a rifle round at the time because of potential ricochet problems.

Has anyone tested AR plate with a BHN of 325 or higher with a .30-06 AP round? It seems that it is legal to buy or sell surplus based on what is posted.

In CA no range will allow ammo which attracts a magnet due to potential fire concerns and AP ammo would just tear up their metal targets so possessing AP rounds have limited usefulness here.

 

[hammerklavier]

So I guess casting your own bronze bullets is out

 

[CoRoMo]

Types of legal ammo

What ammo is illegal and what is not?

I can't imagine that it would be practical, or even possible, to give you a list of all the different types of ammo that are legal. Basically, all ammo that is not prohibited.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

So why is DPX not illegal?

 

[Sunray]

Somewhere on the ATF's site there's a list of what AP ammo is allowed and what is not. Had it bookmarked but they changed the page. Any 5.56 AP is evil as I recall. As is any .308/7.62NATO AP ammo. Steel jacketed ammo is NOT AP.
"....30-06 AP ammo..." Legal Federally, but may not be in CA. You get to comply with Federal, State and sometimes municipal law.
"...why is DPX not illegal?..." Isn't AP for one. It's a solid copper bullet. "Corbon’s DPX line is now a California non-lead certified Ammunition*".

 

[Shadow 7D]

So what happens if the ninnys in California make lead pollution a crime and ban lead bullets without proper enviro permit? I understand that it'll stick to the gun owners more, but what happens frangible only, do you get something like DPX OKed?

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Not what I asked, sunray:

I mean, did the ATF test the beryllium content of the copper used in DPX?

 

[Prince Yamato]

The only thing that makes me mad is that steel core ammo is cheaper than regular ammo (or at least it was). And now, we're paying more because of the type of metal a bureaucratic agency says is acceptable to be fired out of a gun... crazy.

 

[KJS]

Carrying hollow points in NJ except to the range and back and when purchasing same is illegal.

What is the reasoning behind that law? Aren't hollow points supposed to be safer in the sense they are less likely to blow a hole through the bad guy or an interior wall, inadvertently striking an innocent person?

And what the purpose of hollow points on a shooting range in that law? Does a target care if it gets shot with a FMJ instead of a HP?

 

[KJS]

Armor piercing handgun ammo is considered illegal.

Wouldn't most centerfire rifle ammo be armor piercing if the armor in question is a standard bullet proof (or rather bullet resistant) vest worn by ordinary cops?

 

[bigalexe]

Could you please specify exactly what kind of poison would give the effect you describe.

Curare based toxins, however they affect the acetylcoline production of the body and as such can be easily countered with Pyridostigmine. I know this from having a medical condition that required me to take that drug just btw.