The reason why some "old school" shooters feel comfortable carrying a double action revolver that doesn't have a safety but not a Glock is because the revolver trigger is around 12 pounds and the Glock 5 pounds. You really have to try hard to pull the trigger on a revolver.
What are some good "Sleeper" Semiautos?
- Thread starter MacTech
- Start date
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Of the guns you listed The CZ would be the one I would say is best. I personally do not care for them but concede they are a good gun. The prices on CZ's used to be a lot more reasonable but have increased quite a bit in recent years.
My personal pick for a "sleeper" at a good price would be a used Smith. There are a ton of stainless 5906 police trade ins out there that are selling cheap. Some have external holster wear, but they are overbuilt and probably have been shot very little.
My personal pick for a "sleeper" at a good price would be a used Smith. There are a ton of stainless 5906 police trade ins out there that are selling cheap. Some have external holster wear, but they are overbuilt and probably have been shot very little.
mgregg85
Member
The OP likes the sigma, but not a glock? That just seems strange.
MacTech
Member
No, the OP *tried* the fit of a Sigma and a Glock, the Sigma was more ergonomic it fit my hands better, nothing more
It came down to Sigma Vs. Taurus PT-99AF, the Sigma lost
I like metal frame guns, I like guns with a decent amount of heft and mass, the Sigma and the Glocks seemed far too top-heavy to me (remember, I came from a large-frame revolver background), and I'd imagine that the lighter weight polymer pistols weight distribution and balance point will shift as the magazine empties, this will be far less of an issue with a metal framed pistol
I *have* been contemplating a .45ACP Glock as my next firearm, if I can get one cheap enough at my local gun shop, I have heard good things about their indestructibility, but I'm just not a fan of polymer guns, to me, the weight distribution and balance is all wrong, inconsistent, an empty or nearly empty polymer gun will handle and point differently than one with a full mag
As an experiment, I tried my 3 loaded mags in my PT-99, a 17 round, a 15 round, and the factory wussed-out ban-era 10 rounder, the balance of the gun was unchanged, with no mag, the gun became slightly muzzle-heavy
I then unloaded the 10 rounder, and put it in the gun, it became less muzzle heavy, but it was still slightly muzzle heavy, I then swapped to a partially loaded mag, and the gun balanced well
the PT-99 is not as affected by the weight of the mag as polymer guns are
by way of comparison, I actually purchased the Sigma first, two weeks ago, and as it was my first and only semiauto, I thought it was great, I had no frame of reference to compare it against, last week, I used some store credit at my gun shop to purchase the PT-99, when compared directly against the Sigma, there was no comparison, the Sigma was topheavy, the slide felt rough, and the trigger pull was atrocious, also, an empty or nearly empty mag in the Sigma made it very muzzle-heavy, wheras a full mag balanced it nicely, there was an obvious difference in balance even to this newbie
needless to say, the Sigma was returned the day after I got the PT-99, It was unfired, and I was within the shop's return period, the Sigma was also a used firearm and it actually was returned in *better* condition than it was sold in, as I had taken the time to give it a good cleaning and lubrication
Hindsight being 20/20, I should have just skipped the Sigma altogether and gone with the PT-99
It came down to Sigma Vs. Taurus PT-99AF, the Sigma lost
I like metal frame guns, I like guns with a decent amount of heft and mass, the Sigma and the Glocks seemed far too top-heavy to me (remember, I came from a large-frame revolver background), and I'd imagine that the lighter weight polymer pistols weight distribution and balance point will shift as the magazine empties, this will be far less of an issue with a metal framed pistol
I *have* been contemplating a .45ACP Glock as my next firearm, if I can get one cheap enough at my local gun shop, I have heard good things about their indestructibility, but I'm just not a fan of polymer guns, to me, the weight distribution and balance is all wrong, inconsistent, an empty or nearly empty polymer gun will handle and point differently than one with a full mag
As an experiment, I tried my 3 loaded mags in my PT-99, a 17 round, a 15 round, and the factory wussed-out ban-era 10 rounder, the balance of the gun was unchanged, with no mag, the gun became slightly muzzle-heavy
I then unloaded the 10 rounder, and put it in the gun, it became less muzzle heavy, but it was still slightly muzzle heavy, I then swapped to a partially loaded mag, and the gun balanced well
the PT-99 is not as affected by the weight of the mag as polymer guns are
by way of comparison, I actually purchased the Sigma first, two weeks ago, and as it was my first and only semiauto, I thought it was great, I had no frame of reference to compare it against, last week, I used some store credit at my gun shop to purchase the PT-99, when compared directly against the Sigma, there was no comparison, the Sigma was topheavy, the slide felt rough, and the trigger pull was atrocious, also, an empty or nearly empty mag in the Sigma made it very muzzle-heavy, wheras a full mag balanced it nicely, there was an obvious difference in balance even to this newbie
needless to say, the Sigma was returned the day after I got the PT-99, It was unfired, and I was within the shop's return period, the Sigma was also a used firearm and it actually was returned in *better* condition than it was sold in, as I had taken the time to give it a good cleaning and lubrication
Hindsight being 20/20, I should have just skipped the Sigma altogether and gone with the PT-99
hags
Member
Just because I'm feeling randy..........
So it's ok to be 12lb foolish but not 5lb foolish?
I think if you handle a firearm safely then the trigger weight has nothing to do with it. Glocks don't have hammers to catch and snag on things. Yes, I realize there are hammerless revolvers.
MacTech
Member
Well, for me, the biggest reason for me distrusting the safety of a Glock and not a revolver is because the revolver both has a heavier DA pull, which is *sort of* a safety feature, and it's also easier to verify if a revolver is loaded, as the rounds can be seen in the cylinder, a semiauto generally has no *obvious* way of showing if it's chambered with a live round
it's just one of my little idiosyncrasies, really
it's just one of my little idiosyncrasies, really
hags
Member
Look I don't mean to be outa line here but your experience with semi-autos goes from a Sigma (discontinued and arguably some of the worst triggers out there) to a Taurus PT99 (a copy of a Beretta).
You say that you don't like Glocks or the idea of a Glock, nor the safe action of the Glock.
Then you say that you're considering a Glock 21, but don't like poly guns in general. Also, that they don't balance well.
I'm not sure your picks really provide you with a good example of semi auto pistols.
There are reasons manufacturers like Glock, Sigs, HK, CZ, Smith and Wesson (sans the Sigma), etc.......have good reputations and such loyal customers.
You say that you don't like Glocks or the idea of a Glock, nor the safe action of the Glock.
Then you say that you're considering a Glock 21, but don't like poly guns in general. Also, that they don't balance well.
I'm not sure your picks really provide you with a good example of semi auto pistols.
There are reasons manufacturers like Glock, Sigs, HK, CZ, Smith and Wesson (sans the Sigma), etc.......have good reputations and such loyal customers.
hags
Member
Sure does, it's called a press check and can be done one handed. Then there are all the new semis with loaded chamber indicators.
Then there's that thing that says......treat all firearms as if they're loaded!
mgregg85
Member
I was just saying that 'sigma vs glock' thing was strange because I thought they were just about the same exact gun.
gc70
Member
modifiedbrowning
Member
Bersa.
IdahoLT1
Member
i would not consider an XD a sleeper. It seems everyone and their brother has one.
CZ is probsbly the biggest sleeper but thats starting to fade away as more and more people hear about them. The baby eagles and Armalite's CZ clone seem to be pretty good sleepers as well.
CZ is probsbly the biggest sleeper but thats starting to fade away as more and more people hear about them. The baby eagles and Armalite's CZ clone seem to be pretty good sleepers as well.
rcellis
Member
My favorite unknown semi is the Taurus 940.
hags
Member
Well, yes, Stoeger is a subsidiary of Beretta. The Model 8000 is being made in Turkey in a Stoeger factory with Stoeger employees under Stoeger management using what is now Stoeger machinery.
So is it rebadged? I don't consider that a rebadge. Beretta doesn't make it and then put Stoeger's name on it.
Springfield's 1911 Hi-Cap model is a total sleeper... but a great gun.
I've swapped out the upper for the upper from an older Kimber Stainless I wasn't shooting which really made this hi-cap what it needed to be.
14 rounds before a reload. Stone reliable. Super accurate. I love it!
“Kimfield” Custom 1911 Hi Cap
I've swapped out the upper for the upper from an older Kimber Stainless I wasn't shooting which really made this hi-cap what it needed to be.
14 rounds before a reload. Stone reliable. Super accurate. I love it!
“Kimfield” Custom 1911 Hi Cap
AnaxImperator
Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 81
IMHO, the Makarov & CZ-82 are two of the better "sleepers" in the compact/concealed-carry department.
powwowell
Member
Good Values
RIA 1911s, EAA Witness 9mm and the Kel-Tec P-11. CZs will now cost a lot more than these three, but CZs are still less expensive than than "main line" guns. I have at least one each of the above and I recommend then whole heartedly.
Larry
RIA 1911s, EAA Witness 9mm and the Kel-Tec P-11. CZs will now cost a lot more than these three, but CZs are still less expensive than than "main line" guns. I have at least one each of the above and I recommend then whole heartedly.
Larry
Tom Fury
Member
+1 on S&W autos
From someone who owns and has owned several. I can't credit the complaints I heard in another thread here; All of mine have and do run flawlessly with anything run thru them. Perhaps the negative comments are to discourage others and keep them sleepers.
S&W 4506 (2)
S&W 4566 & 4567 (1 of each)
Early release 4516 with rib
4516-2 (2)
457 (5-6) including a two tone
CS 45
6906 (2)
6904 (2)
Performance Center SN CQB 0069 Blue
currently eyeing another 4563
4596
Cheers, TF
From someone who owns and has owned several. I can't credit the complaints I heard in another thread here; All of mine have and do run flawlessly with anything run thru them. Perhaps the negative comments are to discourage others and keep them sleepers.
S&W 4506 (2)
S&W 4566 & 4567 (1 of each)
Early release 4516 with rib
4516-2 (2)
457 (5-6) including a two tone
CS 45
6906 (2)
6904 (2)
Performance Center SN CQB 0069 Blue
currently eyeing another 4563
4596
Cheers, TF
Last edited:
JR47
Member
Star is out of business. However, the Star Model 30 and 31 are true sleepers. High capacity, well-balanced, accurate, and solid. Made of metal, as you like. Several friends bought them back in the 1980's, and still have them, in the Home Defense role.
The OP doesn't like the Glock, plain and simple. He's open enough to consider the Model 21, which does feel different than the 17/19 or the 22/23. There's no harm in that, other than a couple of people who just can't "understand" why he doesn't like a particular brand of weapon. Let it go.
I'll also second the Armalite AR24.
The OP doesn't like the Glock, plain and simple. He's open enough to consider the Model 21, which does feel different than the 17/19 or the 22/23. There's no harm in that, other than a couple of people who just can't "understand" why he doesn't like a particular brand of weapon. Let it go.
I'll also second the Armalite AR24.
PX15
Member
JMOfartO:
In 1995 I bought my first compact 9mm pistol. It was the just released 3rd generation S&W 3913.... Fantastic pistol then, still is 13 years later.
Recently CDNN was selling nib 6906's (which is just a double-stack 3913), and 5906 (full size/all steel 9mm) for $399.99 w/lifetime warranty.
Since I got my first 3rd generation Smith I've tried the Sig P239, Glock 26, Taurus PT92, Bersa Thunder 9/UC, Star BM, Walther P1, P5, P99c/AS, P99AS and the PPS, HK P7 and probably a few I've forgotten entirely. (I'm old, what can I say?).
Each of the above 9mm pistols had something, (or a lot of somethings) that appealed to me, but OVERALL, none were superior to the old 3913.
Anyway, my Son has placed "dibs" on the 3913 as he likes that pistol better than any of the others I've had, so I put it away for him, along w/several mags. When I saw the new CDNN ad and found out the 6906 WAS just a 3913 with a higher capacity I ordered one.. Crap, new 3rd gen Smith w/lifetime warranty for $400?
I LOVE it... It fits my hands perfectly, and it has "something" about it that makes me want to cc it over my new "flavor of the month" Walther PPS. I've ordered a S&W Grip+2 so that I can use the 15rd mag of the 5906 and have a capacity of 15+1..
In fact I love it so much I started to buy another, but they are all sold.. I started researching the larger and heavier all steel 5906 (they have a few more of those) and everything I found was positive, so I ordered one of those yesterday..
I think the 5906 will make a great "house gun", and my 6906 makes a great 9mm carry gun..
There are several of the other makes and models recommended that I simply have no experience with so I can't comment on whether they are as good or better than the 3rd gen. Smiths, but I can tell you the 3rd gen Smiths are excellent pistols, backed for a lifetime by S&W (who has a superior Customer Service reputation).
Don't know about other S&W pistols, but if you care to research you will find the 3913, 5906,6906 have a history of being very good firearms.
Just more options, no offense to those who might disagree.
Best Wishes,
Jesse
In 1995 I bought my first compact 9mm pistol. It was the just released 3rd generation S&W 3913.... Fantastic pistol then, still is 13 years later.
Recently CDNN was selling nib 6906's (which is just a double-stack 3913), and 5906 (full size/all steel 9mm) for $399.99 w/lifetime warranty.
Since I got my first 3rd generation Smith I've tried the Sig P239, Glock 26, Taurus PT92, Bersa Thunder 9/UC, Star BM, Walther P1, P5, P99c/AS, P99AS and the PPS, HK P7 and probably a few I've forgotten entirely. (I'm old, what can I say?).
Each of the above 9mm pistols had something, (or a lot of somethings) that appealed to me, but OVERALL, none were superior to the old 3913.
Anyway, my Son has placed "dibs" on the 3913 as he likes that pistol better than any of the others I've had, so I put it away for him, along w/several mags. When I saw the new CDNN ad and found out the 6906 WAS just a 3913 with a higher capacity I ordered one.. Crap, new 3rd gen Smith w/lifetime warranty for $400?
I LOVE it... It fits my hands perfectly, and it has "something" about it that makes me want to cc it over my new "flavor of the month" Walther PPS. I've ordered a S&W Grip+2 so that I can use the 15rd mag of the 5906 and have a capacity of 15+1..
In fact I love it so much I started to buy another, but they are all sold.. I started researching the larger and heavier all steel 5906 (they have a few more of those) and everything I found was positive, so I ordered one of those yesterday..
I think the 5906 will make a great "house gun", and my 6906 makes a great 9mm carry gun..
There are several of the other makes and models recommended that I simply have no experience with so I can't comment on whether they are as good or better than the 3rd gen. Smiths, but I can tell you the 3rd gen Smiths are excellent pistols, backed for a lifetime by S&W (who has a superior Customer Service reputation).
Don't know about other S&W pistols, but if you care to research you will find the 3913, 5906,6906 have a history of being very good firearms.
Just more options, no offense to those who might disagree.
Best Wishes,
Jesse
XD-40 Shooter
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 912
Taurus Millenium Pro series
Springfield XD
Taurus 24/7
FNP series
These are all very good semi-auto pistols at very reasonable prices. I've had great luck with both my Mil-Pro and 24/7, Taurus has been good to me.
Springfield XD
Taurus 24/7
FNP series
These are all very good semi-auto pistols at very reasonable prices. I've had great luck with both my Mil-Pro and 24/7, Taurus has been good to me.
BlindJustice
Member
Back in the Day of street racing/stoplight to stoplight
a "Sleeper" would invite competition, most of the oppostion
or others to think well I can beat _that_ since from outward
appearances it didn't seem to pose a threat. "SLeepers"
looked stock until you looked or listened closely to the details.
At least that's the way I'm thinking about a "Sleeper" Semi-Auto.
It whould look like, say a GI 1911 or a box stock CZ 75B in .40 S&W
or ??? but on the inside, it's had the Wolf SPrings, a 'blueprinted'
action job and fitted barrel/bushing maybe even a Bar-Sto.
Of course if you're just talking "bargain because most overlook them, then many on this thread have already given the O.P. some great ideas.
Randall
a "Sleeper" would invite competition, most of the oppostion
or others to think well I can beat _that_ since from outward
appearances it didn't seem to pose a threat. "SLeepers"
looked stock until you looked or listened closely to the details.
At least that's the way I'm thinking about a "Sleeper" Semi-Auto.
It whould look like, say a GI 1911 or a box stock CZ 75B in .40 S&W
or ??? but on the inside, it's had the Wolf SPrings, a 'blueprinted'
action job and fitted barrel/bushing maybe even a Bar-Sto.
Of course if you're just talking "bargain because most overlook them, then many on this thread have already given the O.P. some great ideas.
Randall
phrozenlikwid
Member
$450 can buy you a lot of handgun, especially if you don't mind buying used.
I'd look at:
CZ's (especially the 40B)
S&W M39
Used Glocks
Used Beretta 92's
Zastava (imported by Charles Daly at the moment I think) CZ99
Many of those guns above would leave you some money left over for extra magazines, holsters, etc.
I'd look at:
CZ's (especially the 40B)
S&W M39
Used Glocks
Used Beretta 92's
Zastava (imported by Charles Daly at the moment I think) CZ99
Many of those guns above would leave you some money left over for extra magazines, holsters, etc.
BlindJustice
Member
Just re-read Mac Tech's <-- O.P. right? He referred to himself as
the O.P. sort of like referring to yerself in the 3rd person.
Anyway, I'd recommend the CZ 75B - it's got the frame mounted thumb
safety, DA when you manually drop the hammer to the safety notch, it
weighs 35.2 oz. empty. 16 rd mag cap. in 9MMx19 & good ergos for
men, and some male posts say their wife/G.F. like the ergos as well. The
AR-24 is a copy made for the civivian market in Turkey and is a little cheaper,
If the O.P. doesn't get the one he handled and it sells I guarantee the next
one that gun dealer has to replace it with for sale will be at a higher price
the prices went up a few bucks just after I got a 75B 3 1/2 months ago.
I've got 800 rds of every type from cheap to spendy 9119 in fmj, and jhps,
through it, 100% reliability no FTFs/FTEs & it's silly accurate. My shooting
buddy has a Block 19 - I've shot his G19 I only like it's accuracy & reliability,
but little else in terms of grip shape, angle, sights, and the mag release was
weeird, then the deal breaker, a flimsy plastic mag? Well, enuf
about the G19 except to say my shooting buddy is now wanting a CZ maybe a 97 in .45 ACP.
One that hasn't caught on yet and is still a great buy it seems is
the FNP 9
Add in the Rock Island Armory 1911 - gun range I go to has a Tactical
for $490 - might see about swapping a S&W revo I don't like for it. just
waffling.
R-
the O.P. sort of like referring to yerself in the 3rd person.
Anyway, I'd recommend the CZ 75B - it's got the frame mounted thumb
safety, DA when you manually drop the hammer to the safety notch, it
weighs 35.2 oz. empty. 16 rd mag cap. in 9MMx19 & good ergos for
men, and some male posts say their wife/G.F. like the ergos as well. The
AR-24 is a copy made for the civivian market in Turkey and is a little cheaper,
If the O.P. doesn't get the one he handled and it sells I guarantee the next
one that gun dealer has to replace it with for sale will be at a higher price
the prices went up a few bucks just after I got a 75B 3 1/2 months ago.
I've got 800 rds of every type from cheap to spendy 9119 in fmj, and jhps,
through it, 100% reliability no FTFs/FTEs & it's silly accurate. My shooting
buddy has a Block 19 - I've shot his G19 I only like it's accuracy & reliability,
but little else in terms of grip shape, angle, sights, and the mag release was
weeird, then the deal breaker, a flimsy plastic mag? Well, enuf
about the G19 except to say my shooting buddy is now wanting a CZ maybe a 97 in .45 ACP.
One that hasn't caught on yet and is still a great buy it seems is
the FNP 9
Add in the Rock Island Armory 1911 - gun range I go to has a Tactical
for $490 - might see about swapping a S&W revo I don't like for it. just
waffling.
R-
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