What are US students learning about the 2nd Amendment?

[radicalthoughts]

SamTuckerMTNMAN,

Allow me explain in a bit more detail what I meant by this. While I believe the constitution should be taught to children of all ages, there are a number of things that have to be taught first that fail to be taught.

The first of which is a historical context. Beyond the Federalist and Anti-Federalist was the intellectual revolution of the 1790's, which focuses primarly on capitalism and furthermore the right to property. which in no small part was caused by the constitution, and is reflected in the passage of the bill of rights.

Without this context the bill of rights is worthless. Unless you understand that every single bill of right is protecting a property right (remember you own your own body and the products of that body) then it is impossible to teach this.

I am not opposed to the consitution, the bill of rights being learned, debated, discusses, chanellenged or even rewritten as a class excercise. I am however doubting the value of it without a philsophical or historical context to base it on.

arthurcw,

The battle for the classroom is just begining. With things like the leadership institute, collegiant network, and Young American Foundation, that help enable students to fight an ideology disagreeable to liberty.

I think that outside of the classroom is important, but I think that we can not give up on inside the classroom either. I'm a political science and history major and we must win in the classrooms and change the ideology of collectivism to one of personal responsibility based on the rights that the founders laid out that should not change in meaning.

 

[Axman]

Her answer was that the militia used to be "the people" until the National Guard was formed which replaced the militia (or somesort of nonsense like that.)

Be ever so kind as to point out to this teacher U.S.C. Title 10, Subtitle A, Part 1, Chapter 13, Section 311...

Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

Bold emphasis placed by me!

Here's the link...U.S Code

Individual state gun laws are also unconstitutional according to Article IV, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution...

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

 

[Rachen]

Chairman Mao had said

that power arises from the barrel of a gun.

That simply sums it up, without them, you simply become a tool, a puppet. If the Chinese Communist peasants had no guns, they wouldn't be able to fight the Japanese invaders and the Nationalist (fascist) government at the same time so well.

Someone mentioned the IPOD generation here. Well they are suckers, most of em'. I am actually right in the middle of the IPOD generation age group, from 14-24, but I am not an IPOD fetish freak. In fact, I don't even know how to use one, not to mention owning one . However, I do have a couple of revolvers and they satisfy me more than all the electronic wonders of the world can. Don't need the latest video games or digital gadgets to keep me happy.

The next time someone rants to you about gun control BS, simply ask them this: If you were a cat and you can think, would you rather be declawed before being set loose in the woods or would you rather keep your claws. Just watch the look of triumph on their faces disintegrate into looks of defeat. I asked a gun-control nut this question once and walked away sneering because he couldn't answer the question and started to stutter. I simply sat silent and let him preach his nice 5 minute speech about how guns are evil and how they kill people, then when he is finished, I responded with the little question of my own.

 

[jak]

.

 

[MSGT9410]

I simply sat silent and let him preach his nice 5 minute speech about how guns are evil and how they kill people,

If someone that is visiting my home ever says that, I'll go and get one out of the cabinet, clear it, set it on the table, look at it, and say "Kill somebody already!"

Look in amazement as we all leave the room alive.

 

[mindwip]

I dont remember anything being taught about the bill of rights. I know we went over them once or twice but that was it( basicly read them, i do remember goilng over the first in more depth). Its up to kids now a days to learn for them selfs non-important stuff like what the bill of rights mean, and what the words mean.

 

[arthurcw]

radicalthoughts,

your Quote:

arthurcw,

The battle for the classroom is just begining. With things like the leadership institute, collegiant network, and Young American Foundation, that help enable students to fight an ideology disagreeable to liberty.

I think that outside of the classroom is important, but I think that we can not give up on inside the classroom either. I'm a political science and history major and we must win in the classrooms and change the ideology of collectivism to one of personal responsibility based on the rights that the founders laid out that should not change in meaning.

My original post:

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the battle for the classroom is over for the moment.

I think we agree sort of. Like I said in my original post, that subject sets me off so I didn’t explain my self well after the rant.

By “,battle for the classroom,” I mean taking on the overwhelming majority of teachers that spout the NEA silliness that is taught in just about every School of Education and the Administrators that run the schools. I’m not saying to give up the kids, I’m just saying don’t expect the NEA zombies to carry our water or give a fat rat’s backside about the truth of the Constitution.

The ONLY way into kids’ minds is through other organizations and parents that can teach them correctly out side of, or rather in spite of, the official classroom setting. I should have said "battle IN the classroom" not "for the classroom".

By, “… for the moment,” I mean that I really don't want to send kids into classrooms armed with truth against an NEA stooge that is going to bully them with the grade book. I'd rather see kids get their point across where they can and grow up to be the new teachers that teach the truth (I suspect you of being one of these dangerous types) and not one hell bent on preaching an agenda. Kids, no matter how righteous they are, should not have to fight OUR battles. As I said, I really should have put it as “in the classroom”.

Battles “for the classroom” are ours to fight in the legislatures and courts. I DO believe those are ongoing, but perhaps not going well.

 

[Detritus]

First i wll add my own expereince with being taught about the bill of rights. I was lucky my freshman year and drew a Civics teacher that was rather "traditional" in her veiws of the constitution and bill of rights.

In her words, "these pieces of parchment are the basis for our country's laws and way of governing it's self, it's "all there in black and white" so to speak, and so in the method by which we can as a nation choose to modify, add to, or further define their contents. These documents codify and thereby protect some of the most basic rights we hold dear. and thus, though many of you will disagree, the subject matter I am about to cover with you over the next few weeks is probably the most important thing you will ever be taught, since when you learned to dress yourself and tie your own shoes.

her specific take on the 2A was along the lines of, "regardless of what you may hear throughout the rest of your life, this is THE most important amendment. for without it there is no real way for citizens to hold a government to the REST of the constitution.... " she also covered the whole "well regulated militia" subject and i remember "who constitutes 'the militia' " and the answer being "all of the above" being on a test.

so not all teachers are teaching strictly by the book.

"Further, I have to say that as a high school teacher, I am somewhat offended at the idea that you guys apparently just think we make these kids memorize and repeat, memorize and repeat."

well in the Durham NC Public school system in '95 I was threatened with failure of the class (not of the upcoming test, but of the CLASS, and this being senior year, thus threatening graduation) by my US History teacher when i protested to how she was presenting the period of the vietnam war to the class (her take on the subject was not only anti-war, but anti-soldier, and anti- "anything not peace, love, dope"). And she wasn't the only one I encountered both in HS and in 18 months of college i took with this attitude toward teaching their students.

so yeah, in my personal experience a number of teachers i have had at primary, secondary, and even college level expected and to some extent made their students "read, listen, and regurgitate it for the test"

and i'm not EVEN going to get into the absolute and total BS that my step-daughter went through here in texas public schools. since the schools here no longer teach for real retention of knowlege, but for ability to simply pass a standardized test to a given level or beyound (literally, "oh that's not going to be on the TAAS/TAKS test so you don't NEED to know that!" :banghead: )

If an individual teacher truly TEACHES that is good, but the sad thing is that in alot of cases kids are being taught simply to get them to the minumum standard allowable to pass them on to the next level teacher, or as in Texas, in some/many districts kids are taught only to the level required for each school system to maintain or maybe raise it's current state or federal funding.

well anyway that's my experience.

 

[up_onus]

Being about 10 yrs out of a state funded school, there is barely any mention of "gun rights" except in a simple reading of constitution.

on a side note,
PRO GUN OR NOT
a good teacher would present both sides to students to have them make the decision for themselves.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

From Sept '65 to June of '72 I was in a catholic military school in Virginia. One of the courses that were taught happened to be American History. As luck would have it the teacher was a retired Marine who was a gunowner and a history buff to boot. He taught us about the entire Constitution as written,not just bits and pieces . I found out years later that he toured battlefields and collected artifacts from the civil war.

When I got to highschool I was fortunate to have a teacher who really cared about teaching. He taught Civics/Social Studies, and History. Most of it had to do with American History but it included some european history too. When it was time to discuss the US Constitution he didn't gloss over it. As I recall, we had an ongoing discussion about why it was written, and what it meant to us as citizens. The same thing was done regarding the Bill of rights. We had to write a report on this too.

He used the same method to teach Civics and Social Studies particularly when it came to voting and why it shouldn't be taken for granted! Unfortunately, I have since forgotten one of their names but I have never forgotten the lessons and the way they were taught!

Both teachers in their own way MADE you think and ask questions, then draw your own conclusions! Neither one would let you sit like a bump on a log. You could not skate through their class and get a decent grade!

While my son was still in highschool I would ocassionally ask him about his teachers and curriculum (although he lived 400 miles away). The biggest surprise came with his history teacher when he told me that it was seldom taught in depth, instead it was mostly skirted around,glossed over,etc... up to and including the founding of our country! I don't think the founding fathers even got an "honorable mention"!

What a mess the PC crowd has made of our country!

 

[The_Future]

I'm a sophmore in high school and yes I would say most kids in my class memorize and repeat. Heck even I do this in World History, not because I don't care but I feel the teacher doesn't care. He gives 15 minutes(if i'm lucky) of lecture and then gives you a 5 minute assignment for a 55 minute class. My respones to this is "if he's not bothering to teach, why should i bother to learn" so far I still have an 'A' in the class and remember most things he went over.

There is no mention of 2A in my WH class, my civics class last year there was plenty of mention of it. But I was the one explain to the blissninnies why the 2A is needed. After civics the next 40-50 years of politics really scare me because it's these people that are going to be running for office.

 

[crunker]

As a high-school sophmore, the experiences with Second Amendment discussions I've had in class are well odd.

The books are subtly anti-gun.

My teachers have generally been accepting, at least they listen to different views.

Classmates seem to regard me as odd for actually considering owning a gun as a means of defence, most people around here have them for sporting as I live in a low-crime area.

One kid who I talk to is pro-gun, he believes that the govt's actions in New Orleans were pure BS and he thinks it's smart to own a gun if you know how to use it.

Girls seem to be scared of me. Maybe it's because I'm a six foot two Indian?

 

[ProguninTN]

Curriculum

One thing I did learn for sure in school. Watch what is said like a hawk, and prepared to take a grain of salt. Sometimes there is nonsense, whether it be blatant or subtle.

 

[GRIZ22]

Most textbooks are educators. I don't know what the statistics are for high school teachers but college professors (the ones that usually write the textbooks) are over 90% liberals of the John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Charles Schumer kind. No wonder that they see the 2A applying only to the militia instead of the RKBA which is a totally independent thought in the 2A.

This living document crap is just that. Those who limit the 2A to militia are also those that think the 1A protects child pornography, crucifixes in jars of urine, and all the "artsy" stuff they support.

 

[fantacmet]

I know at least one school here, where it is taught that, if you have children, and you have guns, your children WILL die by shooting themselves, that it is not an IF, and no matter what kind of safe or lock your child WILL kill themselves no matter what, with YOUR guns.

Rev. Michael

P.S. Reynolds School District, Reynolds High School, Oregon.

 

[Autolycus]

GRIZ22.. you wrote:

This living document crap is just that. Those who limit the 2A to militia are also those that think the 1A protects child pornography, crucifixes in jars of urine, and all the "artsy" stuff they support.

It does protect those things (not the child pornography). However the 2nd Amendment is not limited to militia.

 

[radicalthoughts]

I believe the child pornography refrence is to this:

Ashcroft_v._Free_Speech_Coalition

We shouldn't start the debate about CP here, but I'd like to point out that depending on your definition of CP the Supreme Court has allowed it.

 

[History Prof]

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the battle for the classroom is over for the moment. If you don't try to teach people outside the classroom about the RKBA and Original Intent, no one will. The "Historians" sure aren't going to.

Ehem. Some of us do.

 

[quatin]

Textbooks are horrible teaching tools.

I believe this started somewhere in the Nixon era, where textbooks by law cannot portray the US government in any detrimental way. In fact, one of my TAs in college was conducting his thesis based on how "Textbooks in Texas are riddled with the effects of political agenda especially in rewriting the history books in a biased way to favor Texas/US". I remember reading the Alamo described step by step in my Texas History textbook and literally finding two contradictory sentences: "Everyone died at the alamo." and "Perhaps someone snuck away at night to tell the story." No where in the chapter did they cite any sources or really try to explain where all these factoids came from if everyone died. If I remember correctly, sometime in the past 2 months a diary was recovered in Mexico of a soldier who fought at the Alamo recounting that Davy Crockett surrendered and was later executed. There was a huge fuss in Texas about keeping that "factoid" out of the history books.

 

[kokogirl]

All throughout my educational career, we were never taught the meaning of the 2nd amendment. Just taught the memorize key words for certain amendments, i.e. 5th = Self-incrimination/double jeopardy. Repeat & Memorize sums it up pretty well. Most the people I know couldn't tell me their own rights. Hell, I don't think I could list all of my rights... this adds to the reasons why we're losing them.

Now that I'm in my elephant years of college, they have explained it a bit more in law, but again, it's a subject that most professors tend to avoid to keep controversy and emotions at a low.

Disappointing in my eyes. I guess I'll join gun club. Kind of expensive though.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

no KOKOGIRL

start a target club for your school...
find local person with land, elect officers (ads around campus), air rifles if not real guns, find safe places off campus to keep various implements.

st

 

[djpullen]

Good teachers are fast becoming a rarity. I had an 8th grade social studies teacher in the early 90's that was phenominal. He's still teaching but will be long retired before my daughter gets old enough to have him. This guy has spent thousands upon thousands of his own money and time to better teach his students. Several times a year, he will dress up in period clothing and play the charactor of a particular person in history. He even brings in old flintlocks and stuff to go with the dress. One day, he dressed in period and charactor of a slave owner. He gave a good 5 minute disclaimer at the beginning of class stating that what he was going to say wasn't right and wasn't his personal view point but merely showing the other side of the story that isn't taught in the text books. He gave a good long speech and even allowed us students to debate what he was saying and some were getting really upset with him. He pulled it off so well that at the time, we didn't even think of him as our teacher. One of the biggest things I remember from it was that why would a slave owner whip or kill a slave? They were very expensive and would be akin to a farmer getting upset at his $100,000 tractor and working it over with a sledge hammer because the starter went out (those weren't his words but mine. Paraphrasing.)

We had to make some sort of project and I put together a muzzleloader kit for mine. It was displayed in the hallway glass cabinet. He also took students from our historians club to a local reenactment/feast thing where I bought an old cap and ball 45cal. handgun and brought it home. It barely raised his eyebrows. Too bad that there aren't more like him. This guy spends so much time on his career that I'd be surprised if his wife doesn't resent him for it.

 

[LoveMyCountry]

The entire staff of my children's school are passionate defenders of the Constitution and teach it at every opportunity. They carry guns all of the time, in the school as well as while on field trips. They even take them shooting and proudly show off the children's targets. They teach what is right whether it is PC or not.

They even hug and kiss them and tell them that they love them!

Home Schooling. It does a child good.

LoveMyCountry

 

[radicalthoughts]

For anyone interested in starting a gun club or political group of any kind on campus feel free to PM. I've started a student newspaper and a libertarian club on campus so I know the basics and how to deal with administration and the hoops they'll make you jump through to get started and get funding.

 

[OSS]

Being a college student, I went through high school not too long ago. Let me tell you, the government classes are JOKES. I didn't learn a thing.

Today in one of my college math courses, I presented a project on the recent trends in gun control (i.e. 36 states are now shall-issue whereas in the 80s there were only a handful) and then presented DOJ data on decreasing gun crime since 1993 (it's gone down about 61% just in case you're wondering).

I go to a state school in Virginia... and when I explained that anyone can carry a legally owned firearm in the open without any permit, a fellow student's jaw dropped. She was so perplexed that "just anyone can walk around with a gun" in her own state - I could tell she was thinking "well why aren't people shooting each other all time just for the hell of it like the wild west!"

And I can assure you the majority of students on my campus are just as ignorant - they probably think the government is "protecting" them by forbidding people to carry guns, yet they have NO CLUE that any law abiding citizen can carry a gun without having to get permission from the state (as it should be, dag nabit!), and as a result, the violent crime rate is several times lower than nearby Maryland and D.C.