2nd Amendment with 1st Amendment Trampled

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cohibra45

Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
156
Location
Melbourne, Florida
Here is a link to a student at Community College of Allegheny County.

http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/10645.html

Here is what the article says:

"First Amendment Rights Trampled by Pittsburgh College after Student Advocates for Concealed Carry of Firearms on Campus
May 27, 2009

FIRE Press Release

PITTSBURGH, May 27, 2009—A student who wants to form a gun-rights group at the Community College of Allegheny County (CCAC) has been threatened with disciplinary action for her efforts. Student Christine Brashier has turned to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help after reporting that administrators banned her informational pamphlets, ordered her to destroy all copies of them, and told her that further "academic misconduct" would not be tolerated.

"CCAC has demonstrated a shocking lack of respect for the rights of free speech and free association," FIRE President Greg Lukianoff said. "Across the country, students are increasingly denied the First Amendment right to debate the Second Amendment. At CCAC, this censorship trend has reached a new low."

In April, CCAC student Christine Brashier created pamphlets to distribute to her classmates encouraging them to join her in forming a chapter of the national Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC) organization at CCAC. The handbill states that the group "supports the legalization of concealed carry by licensed individuals on college campuses." She personally distributed copies of the flyer, which identified her as a "Campus Leader" of the effort to start the chapter.

On April 24, Jean Snider, Student Development Specialist at CCAC's Allegheny Campus, summoned Brashier to a meeting that day with Snider and Yvonne Burns, Dean of Student Development. According to Brashier, the deans told Brashier that passing out her non-commercial pamphlets was prohibited as "solicitation." They told Brashier that trying to "sell" other students on the idea of the organization was prohibited.

CCAC also told Brashier that the college must pre-approve any distribution of literature to fellow students, and that pamphlets like hers would not be approved, even insisting that Brashier destroy all copies of her pamphlet.

Brashier reports that she was also interrogated about why she was distributing the pamphlets, whether she owned a licensed firearm and had ever brought it to campus (she has not), whether she carries a concealed firearm off campus, and whether she disagrees with the existing college policy banning concealed weapons on campus.

When Brashier stated that she wanted to be able to discuss this policy freely on campus, she was told to stop doing so without the permission of the CCAC administration. Dean Burns reportedly said, "You may want to discuss this topic but the college does not, and you cannot make us." Brashier was then told to cease all activities related to her involvement with SCCC at CCAC and that such "academic misconduct" would not be tolerated.

FIRE wrote CCAC President Alex Johnson on April 29 about these violations of Brashier's First Amendment speech and association rights, pointing out that her free speech in no way constituted solicitation, that CCAC is obligated to permit students to distribute literature and may not ban it on the basis of viewpoint or content, and that if CCAC recognizes student organizations at all, it must recognize an organization that supports concealed carry on campus. FIRE requested a response by May 13, and CCAC responded only by promising a reply from either CCAC or the Allegheny County Solicitor's office at some "reasonable" future time. Two weeks have passed since that promise, leaving the First Amendment in jeopardy at CCAC.

"If it is true that trying to 'sell' students on an idea is prohibited as a matter of solicitation, virtually the entire enterprise of the college is prohibited," said Robert Shibley, FIRE Vice President. "All persuasive speech would have to be pre-approved by the college. CCAC must end this unjustified assault on its students' rights immediately."

This incident is the worst and latest in a significant trend of punishing students for debating the Second Amendment in the wake of the 2007 Virginia Tech shootings. At Central Connecticut State University, after a student gave a class presentation about concealed firearms on campus, his professor called the police. At Hamline University, a student was suspended, pending a mental health evaluation, after he advocated in an e-mail for concealed weapons on campus. The SCCC chapter at Tarrant County College in Texas has been prohibited, two years in a row, from holding an "empty holster protest." At Lone Star College near Houston, the Young Conservatives of Texas were censored and threatened with de-recognition when they distributed a humorous flyer listing "Top Ten Gun Safety Tips." Lone Star's general counsel suggested that even a "mention of firearms and weapons" is inherently a "material interference" with the school's operations.

FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation that unites civil rights and civil liberties leaders, scholars, journalists, and public intellectuals from across the political and ideological spectrum on behalf of individual rights, due process, freedom of expression, academic freedom, and rights of conscience at our nation's colleges and universities. FIRE's efforts to preserve liberty on campuses across America are described at thefire.org.

CONTACT:
Robert Shibley, Vice President, FIRE: 215-717-3473; [email protected]
Alex Johnson, President, Community College of Allegheny County: 412-237-4413; [email protected]
Elmer Haymon, President, Community College of Allegheny County-Allegheny Campus: 412-237-2543; [email protected]


I guess we all need to shut up and let those in power tell us what we need, can do, and basically how to live!!!!!!!:cuss:
 
Civil disobedience seems like the proper solution to this problem. No one can stop me from doing something that I know is not illegal.
 
I suggest that she tries again, and then calls a lawyer when they try to expel her. She won't have to worry about loan bills ever again if they try and mess with her.
 
You gotta at least marvel at liberals. "Hypocrisy" just isn't in their vocabulary...
 
What, is a College not part of America?
Course your not allowed to pray in schools, freely associate, or other things either.
 
You are, in fact, allowed to pray in schools. Organized prayer during school hours is the only thing that's prohibited, as it would be an obvious disruption..
 
First, this a press release. I've been a newspaper editor for many years. Press releases are always twisted to present one point of view. I, therefore, give it little credence.

Second, I've been a shooter for 50 years and a published author for more than 30 years. I believe the First Amendment to be the most important. I believe if it were not for the Second Amendment we would have lost our First Amendment rights decades ago.

To deny First Amendment rights in addressing Second Amendment rights is criminal. However, criminal prosecution won't be easy to accomplish. I would refer the student to the state's newspaper association attorneys to file a civil suit for violation of the First Amendment right.

Freedom of speech may be curtailed, but only if it is proven that it presents an immediate danger to innocent bystanders. I wonder how much First Amendment-protected porn is circulated on that school's computer system. Yet discussion of Second Amendment rights is censored.

It is disgusting.
 
no 1st amendment violations there...

the school said was you can't do it on school grounds. no diffrent from a place of biz telling you not to picket in thier store.


I'm sure there was plenty left out of that artical...
 
Yes, there are violations.

It is a public institution that receives public funds. Therefore, it must comply with all laws and regulations that would apply to any government agency.

If it were a private school that did not get a dime from the government it could skate, but it is a publicly funded institution. If it accepts Pell grants or government guaranteed student loans it must comply with ALL federal regulations.
 
really so I can at any moment in class, get up out of my chair, and start spouting my political veiws and the school can not do anything about it?

Any type of club on campus, that uses campus resorces( IE rooms) can and is regulated by the school.
 
Tab,

Are you just looking for an argument?

Of course you cannot disrupt normal educational activities. However, in common areas your right to free speech is sacrosanct.

I saw no reference about asking to use institutional facilities.

You are saying I can't have a discussion about my range experience in the cafeteria if an administrator objects. That is patently false.

The First Amendment is not limited to what the administration of an educational institution finds acceptable.

To date, the only restrictions are concerns for public safety. If you can cite otherwise, please do so.

Your argument is why there is a Second Amendment. At some point someone must protect the First.

Please, if you would, tell me why you would restrict discussion of the Second Amendment in an academic setting?

It appears you feel we should pass a background check to post to an Internet forum.

What is the litmus test?
 
thats not what I said, she wanted to form a club on campus. There is a huge diffrence between talking to people about something and forming a club.

To form a club, you need to have a staff adviser, so you are using Resorces.
 
personaly, i feel that the real problem is that to many people try to "interpet" the constitution to support their way of thinking, instead of taking it at face value. until that is settled, there will never be any kind of peace concerning constitutional issues. if you do not respect the constitution as it stands, you do not repect anything about America. if someone tramples any area of the constitution, they trample all of it.
 
thats not what I said, she wanted to form a club on campus. There is a huge diffrence between talking to people about something and forming a club.

To form a club, you need to have a staff adviser, so you are using Resorces
.

That's not exactly right also there Tab.........she just wanted to exercise her rights to start a chapter of this already organized program. Semantics maybe, but still, a little different than starting a campus pep club that is only associated with that particular college. Here is a link to the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus:

http://concealedcampus.org/

Also, here is what might be called their mission statement:

Welcome to ConcealedCampus.com

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is a national, non-partisan, grassroots organization comprised of over 38,000 college students, professors, college employees, parents of college students, and concerned citizens who believe that holders of state-issued concealed handgun licenses should be allowed the same measure of personal protection on college campuses that they enjoy virtually everywhere else. SCCC has members in all fifty states and the District of Columbia.

As you might see, it is a .org and not a .com............just pass it along and hope she gets her right to organize a national chapter on her campus. This is nothing more than any other national organization that has chapters all over.;)
 
if you do not respect the constitution as it stands, you do not repect anything about America

So why did our founding fathers make provisions in the COTUS for it to change? There have times when it was "trampled" and we would call it a good thing today.
 
If she was trying to start a local chapter of NAMBLA, the administrators would probably be falling all over themselves to assist.

P.S. FIRE will kick their butts in court. They always do (if the college doesn't give up before it gets that far)
 
So why did our founding fathers make provisions in the COTUS for it to change? There have times when it was "trampled" and we would call it a good thing today.

Our founding fathers were a lot more smarter than we give them credit for I believe. Yes, they did make provisions in our constitution for amendments, but they made it much harder to change. That is to make sure that the change wanted is really what 'the majority' of the 'states' wanted.......This is not a majority rules with the popular vote!!!!

They realized that changes might be made in the future. But just like it took many years for our constitution to be ratified and accepted by constant discussion and thought, they wanted the same scrutiny for any changes/amendments. That is why they left it to have 2/3 of the states to ratify changes, not just populations voting. It is extremely hard to get 2/3 states to come together on anything, much less changing amendments. If it weren't that hard, we would have a worthless piece of paper with flip-flops like most of the population tends to do everyday!!!;)
 
Tim the student

Changed legally is considerably different than ignored. If you truly cannot see the difference then... Well, lets just say I'm having some low road thoughts, and let it go there.
 
really so I can at any moment in class, get up out of my chair, and start spouting my political veiws and the school can not do anything about it?

Any type of club on campus, that uses campus resorces( IE rooms) can and is regulated by the school.
You are confusing blanket restrictions (i.e., no disruption of classes allowed) with content-based restrictions (i.e., no advocating CCW by licensed individuals allowed).

It is against the rules to stand up and disrupt class REGARDLESS of what position you are advocating. On the other hand, before or after class, if it is acceptable to pass out pamphlets to your classmates (and it surely is), then the school CANNOT disallow one point of view while allowing another. You cannot allow Christians to distribute literature without allowing atheists to, for example.

From the standpoint of free speech, a school is a public forum, and viewpoint-based censorship of student speech is generally prohibited.
 
Well, we will continue to see more of this as more schools find that there are a few students within thier Insitutions (Public or Private owned) continue to exercise thier own thinking and speech regarding the 1A and 2A.

There will be more of this in the future. Why stop with paper print outs? Hop onto the net, berry or twit the stuff. It will literally take off and gain momentum despite what the School Officials wish or order.

I dont know too much about public funded or private funded schools but I do know that there needs to be at least one student in every place of learning all across the USA thinking about the 1A and 2A regarding thier ability to provide self protection because previous schools and thier gun free zones have failed.

And as long we have courage among the students that actually THINK for themselves and swim against the current like salmon does then we will still have a good outcome with the right methods depending upon where this comes up.
 
thats not what I said, she wanted to form a club on campus. There is a huge diffrence between talking to people about something and forming a club.

To form a club, you need to have a staff adviser, so you are using Resorces. -TAB

TAB,
I'm sure that if it were a GLTT club it would not be a problem. But a gun rights club is a disturbance... that requires special resources right?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top