What "Battle" Rifle

What Battle Rifle?

  • AR 15

    Votes: 50 20.6%
  • AR 10

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • AK

    Votes: 51 21.0%
  • SKS

    Votes: 41 16.9%
  • FAL

    Votes: 60 24.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 35 14.4%

  • Total voters
    243
  • Poll closed .
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I would like to have a Saiga in 308....if nothing more than to try one out, however I think they suffer from the same accuracy issues inherent in the AK design, right? I mean the sights are the same right?

I have never seen anyone approach 4moa with any AK varient, and I have seen several try. At 200 yards or so this is not such a big factor as minute of pie plate means a kill at short range and cheap 7.62x39 is plentifull. But in going to the 308 you are seeking "rifleman" performance out to 500 yards plus....what is the point of having the cartridge ability to reach out there and touch someone if the rifle firing that cartridge is all but incapable of making the shot? Please correct me if I am wrong....

Mike
 
I would like to have a Saiga in 308....if nothing more than to try one out, however I think they suffer from the same accuracy issues inherent in the AK design, right? I mean the sights are the same right?

yea that'd be the case if it had a 1mm receiver as well, but it doesn't. Take a look at the accuracy of the VEPR or the RPK which also have thicker receivers.
 
There have been a lot of very good opinions and suggestions given. However, after reading this entire post, it seems that somewhere (early on), we lost track of the question in its simplest form. There are basically three parts of this question: A. Value, B. Budget, C. Possible building from parts.
Let's address these three segments with the selected rifle choices given.
A. Value=Bang for buck; bang includes many things such as price,
dependability,availabilty of ammo to keep it going bang, as well as
parts supply, all being interrelated. AK wins this
B. Budget; SKS wins hands down
C. May need to build; this is in my opinion a close one. Since I am not familiar
with your mechanical ability I will take a middle of the road approach
and call it a tie between the AR-15 and AK. I have built/worked on
them both and there's nothing fancy going on in there. I would give the
nod to the AR however simply because there are hundreds of parts
suppliers and thousands of experienced "hobbyists" who could help you
in a jam. The only reason the AR would not win the Value category is
that they are a bit more expensive to acquire completed to begin with
than the AK.

Now, are there "better" rifles? Of course. My personal favorite, the M1A/M14 isn't on the list either folks. But, it doesn't win any of the three stated categories which are in question! Well, Value possibly!!!!! But we were asked to help the Poster with HIS dilemma, using HIS prerequisite issues. I've tried to do that without any (obvious) bias. My choice? Given the question with 5 possible answers, I'd still go AR-15. Not the best caliber, but if it doesn't go bang, I can get the parts and repair it myself to make it go bang quickly and easily, ammo is plentiful and cheap not to mention currently issued to Military and Law Enforcement. It's still not my "best" choice, but among the choices given, with the restrictions placed, and the reasons stated, I think it is.
Some of you may have read my other posts and I'll freely admit I'm not a big fan of Combloc equipment. This is not due to their ability, it's personal. The AK and SKS received high marks from me within the context of this question/dilemma. Just want to put that out before someone tries to flame me for "recommending" these firearms when I've derided them other places and times!
 
"Battle rifle"? "Assault rifle"? Those titles are amusing considering all the rifles listed except for the SKS are commercial rifles or are modified to be commericial rifles.

I would say SKS and AK meet the criteria of value rifles.
 
AR15 considering overall logistics

AR15 when you consider the value of interchangeable lower with multiple available uppers. .223 ammo is also very inexpensive which should be more of a consideration when saving money than the absolutely lowest cost rifle.

You can get an inexpensive AR15 to start. Later you can get different uppers in .223 or move to other calibers as well. Each new upper is not ATF controlled as a firearm - only your lower receiver.

.50 Beowulf, 6.5 Grendel, .45 Bushmaster are some of the alternative cartridges for uppers once you tire of just having the .223.

There are accessories galore as well - you can add a few $$ here and there and end up with a high dollar rifle over a long period when starting cheap.
 
i chose the ar 15 ive never been around a fal or an ar 10 but i know whith the ar 15 youll at least hit what youre aiming at
 
AK today - tomorrow and any other day you need one

AK - ain't pretty nor high dollar - but it will take abuse - it will get attention as well - remember only an AK sounds like an AK. :evil: What is your enemy carring? :eek:
 
If your enemy's carrying an AK, I say engage with something in .308 or .30-06, and if possible, from outside his effective range. Did I mention that among true "battle rifles" I like the M1 Garand?:cool:
 
I would like to have a Saiga in 308....if nothing more than to try one out, however I think they suffer from the same accuracy issues inherent in the AK design, right? I mean the sights are the same right?

I have never seen anyone approach 4moa with any AK varient, and I have seen several try. At 200 yards or so this is not such a big factor as minute of pie plate means a kill at short range and cheap 7.62x39 is plentifull. But in going to the 308 you are seeking "rifleman" performance out to 500 yards plus....what is the point of having the cartridge ability to reach out there and touch someone if the rifle firing that cartridge is all but incapable of making the shot? Please correct me if I am wrong....

Mike

Could be part of the reason the Israelis switched to the M16.
 
the only reason the israelis have m16s is because america gives them aid and they have to spend a large percent of that aid on american products to feed our economy, and the m16 is a piece of that. they've had issues in the sandier parts of isreal with the m16 and m249. they're quite fond of the kalashnikov style long-stroke gas piston and rotating bolt in the galil and new tavor.
 
I vote for the SKS, I own one and love it. IMO, its the best rifle/carbine out there for someone on a budget, best bang for the buck. Its simple, reliable, almost indestructible, and its plenty accurate for its intended purpose, anti-personnel.:D I paid $150 for mine in excellent condition, nothing else compares to it in that price range. The only negative as far as I'm concerned is weight, the SKS weighs damn near 10 lbs.

If I were given the choice between an M-16 or an AK in a warzone/battlefield, I would choose the AK hands down. The AK will fire in conditions that will jam up an M-16 severely, think sand, mud, debris, harsh battlefield environments. The AK is not as accurate as the M-16, I say "so what", it'll get the job done. Case in point, the soldiers in Iraq, they clean their M-16's three times a day, regardless of whether they fire it or not. When sandstorms come around, the soldiers walk around with condoms on the end of their barrels, because the M-16 does not like sand.:neener: Bottom line, if I'm in a warzone, screw the M-16.:p I'd rather have an AK for 1/4 of the cost.
 
Though I don't have any of them yet.. I'll go with a saiga-308,sks,ak47 varient..
while I'm into ar15's, I'm saving up for a probably a Romy model (ak).. and the other mentioned above.(saiga) for alittle more money,I'll say build a reasonable priced ar15. for under $900.00 dollar price range. as well as a JLD 308 ETR91 model.

DT!
 
Based on my limited experience with the AR (I am a LEO and we carry them) I have to say the ease of recoil and ability to place quick shots on target is my big appeal to the AR-15.
 
see, i draw a line at "battle Rifle" and "assault rifle". there is no overlap. and the intended and actual employment is just as important as its physical charecteristics. unfortunatly the M14 just didnt make it in my mind.

the FAL is an assault rifle. its designed for volume fire and to be used as an assault rifle.

Kind of an apples and oranges thing calling the M1 a battle rifle. "Battle rifle" is a term invented by the apologists for the M14 in an effort to explain the "wisdom" of the US military adopting a weapon that was an utter flop as an assault rifle (whatever other strengths it might have). It has never been an official term in military nomenclature, but unofficially is used to describe a rifle chambered for a full-power cartridge (.308 etc), firing from a detachable box magazine, and intended for general issue sort of use.

As others have said, the FAL, G3, and M14 are pretty classic definitions of the "battle rifle" -- probably because the term was invented to define the characteristics of those weapons. The M1 Garand, while quite battle proven and such, would not be a "battle rifle" due to the lack of detachable box magazine, etc.

the only reason the israelis have m16s is because america gives them aid and they have to spend a large percent of that aid on american products to feed our economy, and the m16 is a piece of that. they've had issues in the sandier parts of isreal with the m16 and m249. they're quite fond of the kalashnikov style long-stroke gas piston and rotating bolt in the galil and new tavor.

That would make lots of sense, except that the M16/CAR-15/M4 are the preferred weapons for actual shooters in the IDF -- infantry guys, special operations and recon units, etc. The Galil lingers minimally as a personal defense weapon for people who have better things to do than lug a rifle or carbine. If the Galil was the better option, you'd think the roles would be reversed.
 
Of the ones on your list, this would be my order of preference:
FAL
AK
SKS
AR-15
AR-10


Including other options, I'd pick:
FAL/L1A1
G3/clone
M14
M1
AK
AR-15
SKS
No4 SMLE
K31/1911SR
A K98 variant
A Mosin nagant variant
 
Definition of terms

While there was an accepted definition of the term "assault rifle" (before the gun grabbers started calling everthing with a pistol grip and detachable mag an "assault weapon"), there was no specific definition of the term "battle rifle". But there was a generally accepted definition. Here they are.

Assault rifle: Selective fire military style rifle firing an intermediate size cartridge.

These two features (selective fire and intermediate size round) are the key factors in whether or not a particular rifle fits the definition.

Battle rifle: A military style rifle used (or intended for use) in combat firing a "full power" (or full sized) round. The key factor here is military use (actual or intended), and the full power cartridge. Note that it makes no mention of action type. Bolt actions (even muzzleloaders) were the "battle rifles" of their day. Later designs were selective fire, but they retained the full power cartridge.

Full power rounds are judged by the standards of the early 20th century. Rounds that match the ballistic envelope used by the cartridges of major powers during WWI/WWII in their main service rifles. Some of the rounds during the wars are lighter and less powerful than others, but they are still considered as "full size" or full power rounds.

This includes ALL recognised standards, as well as some of the lesser known ones. .30-06, .308, 7.62x54R, .303 British, 8mm Mauser, 7.7mm Jap, 7.5mm Swiss, are all ballistically close to each other. Lighter cartridges include the 6.5mm Jap, 6.5mm Carcano, 6.5mm Swede, and others. There are quite a few military rounds that will fall into this broad range, even though not used in major wars (ex. 7.65mm Argentine), they should still qualify.

"Intermediate" cartidges were developed during WWII, with the intent of creating a lighter handier rifle/ammo combination, (which used less valuable resources) and still had sufficient power for combat. More powerful than standard pistol rounds, but not as large and powerful as full size rifle rounds. The German 7.92x33mm was the first fielded. Later the Soviet 7.62x39mm was introduced, and became the Communist standard worldwide.

The US took the concept and went a slightly different route. The .30 Carbine (an oversized pistol round) was developed and fielded as a replacement rifle for troops who's main function was not combat, as it was recognised that they needed something with more range and more easily used than a pistol. The (relatively) light carbines found favor with the combat troops, because of their size/weight, and their firepower (15rnds vs 8, standard) Later, when the US decided the full size round was no longer needed for riflemen, we went a different route, going to a small bore high speed round, the 5.56mm (.223). This was a departure from the regular intermediate round formula, as previous designs had retained the full power round's bore size. Although we went about it a different way, the overall effect was approximately the same. A round with a useable combat range of between 300-400 meters.

Now, we are talking about civilian legal (semi auto) rifles, so technically the term assault rifle does not apply. However, thanks to the gun grabbers muddying the popular definition, assault rifle and assault weapon is used by many for any rifle that looks like an actual assault rifle. Call it what you want, but if you are going to get into guns, learn the real difference.

Of the guns on your list, only the AR10 and the FAL would be proper battle rifles. AR15, SKS, and AK are not. Call them carbines, or semiautomatic assault rifles (an anti gunner's term), but they are not to be considered battle rifles, due to the round that they shoot.

Of those listed, the best bargin is the SKS, in terms of dollars, as long as the round meets your requirements for range and power. If you need an actual battle rifle round, trhe FAL is cheaper than the AR 10.

Hope this helps.
 
Why are M14s such forgotten /disregarded weapons?

For me, a man who is (reasonably) physical fit, and in good health could do no better than choosing a 14 as a "battle rifle".
 
That would make lots of sense, except that the M16/CAR-15/M4 are the preferred weapons for actual shooters in the IDF -- infantry guys, special operations and recon units, etc. The Galil lingers minimally as a personal defense weapon for people who have better things to do than lug a rifle or carbine. If the Galil was the better option, you'd think the roles would be reversed.

I don't know how many IDF you talk to, but the ones that help me with my hebrew say the opposite. They mostly prefer the tavor over both. Those I talk to include people who get called out to have rocks thrown at them, tank drivers, some stationed in the golan heights, and some engineers. Maybe you've been talking to the euro-israelis.
 
Which Battle Rifle is the best Valu for a person on a budget
SKS- you can still pick up a Yugo SKS for about $100.
If you need a cheap rifle that will reliably bang off 10 rounds between reloads with adequate accuracy, you can't beat the SKS.
 
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