What constitutes probable cause?

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Strakele

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I met with my girlfriend before school today in a parking lot, and some person called the cops on us. Not sure why, but apparently a car sitting in an empty parking lot is 'suspicious'. Either way, a cop pulled up behind my car, and he asked what we were doing. We were just chatting before school, so it seemed like everything would be ok. Then he saw the bullet I wear on a chain around my neck (not live of course) and asked to search my car for guns. Is that seriously all it takes for probable cause to give him the right to search my car? I didn't want to argue with him for fear of making the situation worse. But still, it scared me. Was it technically legal for him to search my car?

Again, I was sitting inside a car with my friend in an empty parking lot, not disturbing anyone, not playing loud music, not doing anything out of the ordinary. He saw my necklace, asked if I was a 'gun freak' and asked to search my car. Legal?
 
In my experience if the cop asked to search your car, then he didnt have probable cause. Police officers have asked to search my vehicle a few times, once in a situation similar to yours and once at a routine traffic stop. Told them no both times, they got very agitated (one told me he was going to get a warrant :rolleyes:) went back to their car, ran my tags and license. And then came back and told me to have a nice day. He was probably just bored, and going out on a limb hoping to find something in your car. Next time one asks just be polite and tell them no they dont have your permission.
 
I just figured it would have been awfully suspicious if I had said no. As I've been thinking back on it all day I keep finding or thinking of better things I could have said.
 
I wear on a chain around my neck (not live of course) and asked to search my car for guns. Is that seriously all it takes for probable cause to give him the right to search my car? I didn't want to argue with him for fear of making the situation worse. But still, it scared me. Was it technically legal for him to search my car?
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If you GAVE HIM PERMISSION TO SEARCH HE DOES NOT NEED TO SHOW PROBABLE CAUSE!

Don't consent to searches without specific advice of counsel to do so. The cops can lie, threaten or even arrest you if you refuse, but so long as you are steadfast in refusing to give permission you have done your part. Keep it simple, don't ever get in a shouting match, but never waiver from your rights. If he gets mad, locks you up and searches the car anyway without a warrant anything he finds or plants there is likely to be booted right back out. Just remember to do your part and never give verbal or written consent.

I just figured it would have been awfully suspicious if I had said no.
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Why is that? Assertion of a Constitutional right cannot establish probable cause. If you weren't doing anything illegal, that's the end of it. If he has probable cause to secure a warrant, he can and will do so without your permission. That's fine. Don't try to stop him. But in no event should you say it's OK to have your car searched. Cops are like vampires. You have to give them permission to come inside.
 
He had the right to search your car once you told him he could. The officer wouldn't have asked you for permission unless he needed it.

Learn/know your rights. I recommend "You and the Police" by Boston T. Party

Alternatively, a multitude of web pages exist explaining your rights regrading encounters with police. A web search will reveal them.
 
Does a cop have to give you a ticket or citation of some sort to be able to put anything on record? He took down our names and stuff, looked at our ID's, and was not happy upon finding my knife, which he told me was illegal. Pretty sure its not... but either way, he gave it back to me and did not issue us any sort of citation or warning, other than verbal. He told me if he 'catches me again' then I can kiss my college hopes and stuff goodbye. Was he just trying to scare me? Can they keep a log of this event without giving me a copy?
 
A Police officer asking is one of the oldest and best tricks in the book. As others have noted if he is asking you can just say no, due to the exclusionary rule found in Mapp v. Ohio evidence found in an illegal search is inadmissible. If you keep saying no there is nothing they can do unless they actually do have probable cause (or a warrant) in which case they don't need your permission, and if they conduct an illegal search then they open themselves up to litigation that they don't want.

Was he just trying to scare me?
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That depends on if the knife is illegal, and if so what the associated penalty is.
 
probable cause...

well thats a wide, cover-anything term right there.

by the way, unless your knife was a machete or a k-bar, he cant say anything. an ordinary folding pocket knife or fixed blade hunting knife is not considered a weapon unless you live in california.
 
He told me if he 'catches me again' then I can kiss my college hopes and stuff goodbye. Was he just trying to scare me? Can they keep a log of this event without giving me a copy?
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Yes they can ask for ID, and yes they can try to scare you by lying about what is and is not legal. Find out yourself if your blade is legal given your age under state and local law. I would have asked him what law I was breaking. The fact that he GAVE IT BACK sets off my lawyer bells and tells me the cop was completely full of it. But as I said you have a responsibility to find out the local law yourself. There are some really weird rules about blades. Up here for example I can conceal a .500 S&W without a permit, but I cannot carry a gravity knife.

I'm not suggesting you should argue with the cop, BTW. That's pretty much pointless and with the wrong cop in the wrong city could end up with you getting taken out and beaten. But you should know if what you're doing is legal or illegal.
 
Yeah the fact that he gave it back to me made me think he knows that I'm not honestly doing anything wrong. Even so, I just want to make sure he couldn't have actually put something 'on my record' without me knowing about it.
 
catches you again? doing what? looking suspisious? he was just being a knob.
yes he was just trying to scare you. sounds to me like he had to save face when his fruitless search yielded nothing. his ego would not allow him to simply apologize and wish you a good day. just my 2 cents.
 
Rule of thumb: If a police officer asks if he/she may search your car, the correct answer is always a polite "no."
 
Well thanks guys, I learned my lesson. Hindsight is always 20/20...

I figured he was trying to scare me, but he said 'we keep this on file for a long time' or something like that. Wouldn't he have had to give me something in order to put anything on record?
 
No he didn't have probable cause, but he can ask to search all day if he wants to, he just can't demand it. In order to have probable cause he has to have a SPECIFIC crime in mind. Lets say someone called the cops and said "hey these guys burglarised my neigbor and they were in a gray taurus". If after this the police saw you in a gray taurus in the parking lot they could search you, because they have a specific crime in mind. "Being suspicious" isn't probable cause. If they smelled weed/alcohol in your car or something along those lines, that would also be probable cause. (not saying they did, just an example)

As far as the knife, depends on the state. In my state a knife with a blade over 4 inches isn't legal to have within reach in your car or on your person. Funny thing is, you CAN have a firearm that close!!

Also, it depends what parking lot you are on. If it was a school or private business that was closed you don't really have a right to be parked there. That in and of itself could constitute a trespass, depending on the state.

The cop sounds like a J-O to me. Looks like we're going to all have to carry video cameras from now on.

I have a degree in criminal justice by the way.
 
Always remember - cops are NOT your friends. No, this is not cop bashing, it's just the way it is. It's their job to constantly fish for information, even if they're just trying to have a friendly chat with you, most likely they have other motives.

In other words, the standard answer to cops should always be "No sir, you do not have permission to search my car/truck/bag/dog/etc." Whether you have anything to hide or not.

I have been in a situation where a cop searched my vehicle, without probable cause, or permission. He found nothing, so I laughed at him. And then he got a big repremand from his supervisor the very next day.
 
Strakle,

I have not read through all of the other replies (due to time constraints), so I apologize if your question has already been addressed!

I am a police officer, and while my reply does not represent the views of my department, or constitute legal advice, I would like to give you my $0.02 on this topic. Also, on the subject of legal advice, always be sure to consult your local laws, or speak with an attorney... There are a lot of arm-chair lawyers online, and you should always trust your own judgement over anything you are told by me (or anyone else) while surfing the net.

Anyway,

If you give consent (voluntarily and without coersion), the officer needs nothing else.

From what you described, the officer who contacted you very likely did not have probable cause. He was asking for a "consent search"... If you read through some of the recent threads, the topic of consent has been fairly well beat to death, with all sides of the equation weighing in.

The situation could have been different if, for instance, a complainant had just reported that you had menaced them in the parking lot, etc. But, obviously this didn't appear to be the case!

One misconception is that if an officer asks for consent, he does not have probable cause. In this instance it appears very likely that he DID NOT have probable cause, but this isn't to imply, as a blanket statement, that just because an officer asks for consent that he is legally unable to enter the vehicle (in short, I almost always ask for consent, even when I have every legal grounds to search a vehicle "incident to arrest" or for an "inventory search").

As far as the "record" goes, some departments have systems where officers can do "street checks", "field contacts", or whatever they like to call them... In other words, the officer can enter your name into the system, and list the details of a contact with you. THIS IS NOT A CRIMINAL RECORD. So, your college dreams won't be touched by it. These databases are used for a variety of purposes, and mostly include the folks who were victims of crime and arrested for crime (as well as field contacts). In the case of my department, this database entry would only be accessible to officers in my own department. In short, don't sweat the situation if you weren't given a summons or arrested!
 
If this is truly all that happened:

starkle said:
I met with my girlfriend before school today in a parking lot, and some person called the cops on us. Not sure why, but apparently a car sitting in an empty parking lot is 'suspicious'. Either way, a cop pulled up behind my car, and he asked what we were doing. We were just chatting before school, so it seemed like everything would be ok. Then he saw the bullet I wear on a chain around my neck (not live of course) and asked to search my car for guns
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Then I agree that this is the perfect answer:

harvster said:
No officer, it would be a waste of our time. Am I free to go?
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Being an officer myself, I am not totally opposed to letting another officer search my vehicle on consent... I know that every officer is different, and I would probably judge the situation on the basis of my feeling about the contact. I also have nothing to hide, and I try not to sweat the small stuff.

But, I certainly wouldn't let someone search my car for guns only because they saw a bullet necklace/keychain, etc.

To me, your situation sounds like an officer being a bit more pushy than they should be. I use consent regularly, but I hate to see it used in situations where it really shouldn't be!
 
If you gave him permission, then it's perfectly legal.
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That's what it boils down to in this scenario. If you had said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle", then it would be up to a judge whether he had PC to search. Beyond that, if a search warrant were issued, and you felt there was no PC you would have to appeal, or petition to get any evidence they found suppressed, and so on, and so on.

IMHO, no, he had no PC,and you were doing nothing wrong, let alone suspicious, so I would have said no. If he got a warrant anyway, I would fight and complain as best as I could,without bankrupting me and my family (meaning, I'd pay for what I can afford, and contact the ACLU, NRA, SAF, media, etc and hope they would help after that)

Was it right? No. Was it legal, depends on a judge/jury (or judges/juries if appealed) .
 
I just figured it would have been awfully suspicious if I had said no. As I've been thinking back on it all day I keep finding or thinking of better things I could have said.
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You would be surprised at the number of people who are in jail because they gave permission for a search of their motor vehicle or home.

I knew one deputy sheriff who everyone thought was a wizard at making drug busts. All he did was ask drunks if he would look in their pockets. Invariably they said yes, even though they had illegal drugs in their pockets.

Sadly, so many police officers are so used to people giving consent to searches they get offended when someone refuses permission to search. I don't understand why. It is a citizen's right to refuse to give permission to search. Such a refusal does not constitute probable cause to search.

Pilgrim
 
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